on 06-04-2024 14:09
With the advent of FTTP on Virgin's network I was wondering if there's any chance we can nominate to have a stand alone ONT installed rather than a Hub5x. I realise the hub 5X has the ONT built in (sort of). But it would be great not to have to put the 5x into modem mode, when modem mode is finally supported as I a standalone ONT coupled with end user's own router would surely use less energy than two routers, albeit one in modem mode. Anyway, maybe I'm being too logical about this, I realise having two separate install models would potentially cause greater cost to VM, as in having to have two sets of inventory. That said, if, once the FTTP upgrade of their DOCSIS network is complete and they do start offering wholesale across both Nexfibre and the upgraded legacy network, surely they will end up having to go down the ONT route anyway to allow for wholesale customers' routers, I am making an assumption that wholesale customers will want to, as far as possible, use the same consumer units on Virgin's wholesale network as they do on Openreach et. al.
Apologies for the rambling stream of consciousness I hope you can follow my logic. Also, I realise I am talking in open ended timescales but, one would hope VM have at least some of the business planning team thinking about these things.
on 07-04-2024 14:13
VM is going to have a real mixed bag of network provision in a few years.
Is it really going to be viable in comparison with Openreach?
on 07-04-2024 15:37
There will be just two big network operators - Openreach and VM. Openreach plans to deliver FTTP to 25m homes and businesses by December 2026 with 12.8m already done. VM is migrating its 16.2m to XGS-PON with fibre to last the cabinets planned for completion by 2028 and, in collaboration with nexfibre, 5m by 2026 with the option of 7m by 2028. So, by 2028 VM and nexfibre could have over 23m premises covered.
on 08-04-2024 07:20
Hi Tudor,
XGSPON doesn't work that way. The ONT identifies the subscriber to the network and from there they are mapped across VLANs and delivered to VM. Whether that ONT is standalone or incorporated into a Hub the ONT is what matters. Relying on MAC is a DoCSIS thing.
on 08-04-2024 07:22
No, they won't.
on 08-04-2024 07:36
To be honest it's a little worrying how many of the posts in this thread have been written with confidence but are completely wrong.
XGSPON is not DoCSIS, please check your facts before sharing them.
On a PON network rate limiting is done by the OLT, nothing in the subscriber's home is required to participate. The ONT doesn't even need to know what tier it's provisioned at. It transmits when the OLT tells it it can and receives data when the OLT sends it.
Subscribers are identified by their ONT. It is mapped to VLANs, usually 2 of them stacked, and delivered to the ISP. There will be a mapping of subscriber to VLAN and, often, the wholesale provider will also insert some metatdata into the client's DHCP request when they forward it to the ISP too. PPPoE is not required and the Openreach / CityFibre ISPs using it only use it because of other requirements on their side.
ISPs can't plug any old thing they want into a PON network. XGSPON is a shared network and one where there are no hard standards on interoperation between vendors. Once up and running that's all standardised but compatibility profiles have to be built and the network provider has to authorise every ONT on their network that they can map it to a subscriber. To connect any vendor's kit to a Nokia OLT means paying Nokia extra, not requiring any of the Nokia-proprietary MIBs and having interoperability tests done.
The only kind of network where an ISP can plug anything into it is a point to point fibre network. Nothing shared, just have to use the right type of optic, no provisioning, no need to authenticate the subscriber as the fibre is all theirs.
on 08-04-2024 17:33
@IPFreely wrote:No, they won't.
Yes, they can, rival ISPs can get their fibre and ONTs into premises and utilise VM's network to help get those ONTs connected to their OLTs. It's essentially the same thing that VM does with some of its RFoG network by using Openreach's ducts and poles to help get VM's fibre and ONTs into premises at one end and connections to VM's VHUBs (which house the OLTs) at the other end.
on 08-04-2024 20:44
I'm not suggesting sharing the physical connections (although no contracts have been signed let alone anything implemented). I'm just saying that I can think of two ways of getting other ISPs on board:
1. Grant access on VM's network on a wholesale basis, i.e. the ISPs become resellers of VM's services. Mind you, they still need marketing, sales, customer service, billing, etc.
2. Use VM's infrastructure to get fibre from their OLTs to their ONTs in premises with the aid of VM's infrastructure, kind of similar to how ISPs do it with Openreach's ducts and poles under PIA. As VM's new network is being built and is far from finished, we can only speculate how this will be done.
on 09-04-2024 11:54
@Roger_Gooner wrote:
@IPFreely wrote:No, they won't.
Yes, they can, rival ISPs can get their fibre and ONTs into premises and utilise VM's network to help get those ONTs connected to their OLTs. It's essentially the same thing that VM does with some of its RFoG network by using Openreach's ducts and poles to help get VM's fibre and ONTs into premises at one end and connections to VM's VHUBs (which house the OLTs) at the other end.
Roger: what are you talking about?
Neither VM or Liberty Global have said anything about opening up the physical infrastructure to others. The OLTs VM's Hub 5x connects to are owned by Nexfibre. VM's network isn't involved until after the OLTs, hence is nothing to do with the PON.
They've said they're going to wholesale. They are wholesaling. Openreach wholesale. It's a completely separate thing from PIA. They cannot resell access to Openreach ducts and poles. An operator would have to use VMO2 ducts potentially to get to the Nexfibre network, the Nexfibre network as a spine to get to the distribution network then Openreach duct and poles, fitting their own CBTs, etc, to get to customers. I don't know about you but I can see a few problems here which is why it's not a thing right now.
VMO2 aren't getting passive infrastructure access to Nexfibre. They won't get passive infrastructure access to the access network of the new NetCo. I've no idea why you think others will.
09-04-2024 12:04 - edited 09-04-2024 12:05
@Roger_Gooner wrote:I'm not suggesting sharing the physical connections (although no contracts have been signed let alone anything implemented). I'm just saying that I can think of two ways of getting other ISPs on board:
1. Grant access on VM's network on a wholesale basis, i.e. the ISPs become resellers of VM's services. Mind you, they still need marketing, sales, customer service, billing, etc.
2. Use VM's infrastructure to get fibre from their OLTs to their ONTs in premises with the aid of VM's infrastructure, kind of similar to how ISPs do it with Openreach's ducts and poles under PIA. As VM's new network is being built and is far from finished, we can only speculate how this will be done.
Wait, what? You aren't suggesting physical connections? What do you think this means? My emphasis on one section.
@Roger_Gooner wrote:
@IPFreely wrote:No, they won't.
Yes, they can, rival ISPs can get their fibre and ONTs into premises and utilise VM's network to help get those ONTs connected to their OLTs. It's essentially the same thing that VM does with some of its RFoG network by using Openreach's ducts and poles to help get VM's fibre and ONTs into premises at one end and connections to VM's VHUBs (which house the OLTs) at the other end.
You're literally saying that that rival ISPs can put their own fibre into VM's network. That isn't what wholesaling is and it's not what VMO2 are doing right now: the product they buy from Nexfibre is provided in a similar manner to the Openreach wholesale products and they connect to the Nexfibre network after the OLT has terminated the XGSPON.
Wholesale and passive infrastructure access are not the same thing. Openreach provide passive infrastructure access because they have to, it's required by Ofcom. Nexfibre, MS3, CityFibre, Netomnia, etc, don't, but are wholesale only. They own and operate their fibre networks, their ducts and poles where they have them, their OLTs. Their products are bitstream products, the wholesale customers get 1s and 0s, not unbundling of physical plant or leasing of fibre or wavelengths to regular PON customers.
on 09-04-2024 12:11
@PlantPot17 wrote:Genuine honest question, in a PON system, how exactly does an ONT identify itself to the entity on the other end of the cable and hence be given access, certificate exchange? That would imply that you couldn't just get your 'own 3rd party device' and plug in.
I get how DoCSIS works with MAC addresses and BPI, and how PPoE or PPoA works, but VM's implementation? OK fairly easy if you are the only supplier on the physical connection, but if it's a shared medium....?
At the most basic level a serial number and that's it. The ONTs are mapped to an OLT port so are provisioned to an area of perhaps 64 premises passed and to capture a device sending a serial number you need to splice an optical tap into the fibre or go to the property itself and look at the serial number: the optical network isn't like the coaxial one where you see other devices on your tap and cabinet's upstream loud and clear, there is a lot of attenuation there and very little of the signal from others, essential none, ends up at your home.
Other mechanisms too. Either way VM's customers will go to VM only, others will go to them only, Nexfibre will take care of that. It's not really been a problem for anyone so far.