Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

[Datalink]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.

The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...

Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...

Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...

That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.

Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.

Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

[Grumpy101]

Im fully aware Wifi is disable in modem mode. I was merely highlighting a point that an egineer insisted that they needed connection to my own routers wifi network. No mention of powerline despite having a 5 port switch sitting next to the box. They certainly didnt mention powerline either even though it wasnt required.

[Guybrush85]

And again I come on to a page of posts with no relevance to the issue. 

[コナー]

I had a lovely chat to a manager regarding this issue. Direct link to image

[mrfreeman]

Well I'm sorry but this is a pain in the neck, because up until now I've never had to connect any virgin box downstairs direct to my router upstairs, it just takes the cable from the street.  So now I will have the hassle of running an ethernet line from downstairs to upstairs just because they couldn't be bothered to include a cable modem inside the v6?  I have the virgin cable wire going through a small hole in the ceiling/floor which won't take any more wires.  So that will need to be enlarged and extra work involved.

Or is the downstream tuner enough to watch the programmes without connecting to the router?  (i.e. cable from street straight into v6 box?)  I don't usually connect the v boxes to the internet, I just watch tv/catchup.  Sorry I am a newb with the latest networking gizmos and am just used to what I've had for ages which has been fine and straightforward.  

[WildWayz]

You can still use the cable from the street - just won't be able to use the catch up stuff... although, I think I remember reading that the EPG uses the internet side?

[mrfreeman]

Thx, yes I just frantically googled all this and now have a clearer understanding lol! So you can still watch live tv, but not much else. Has anyone tried the powerline adapters and how do they compare to the ethernet? Would be easier for me to do that I think.

What bugs me aswell is that they are foisting the Hub 3 on people who have the v6, which means online gaming is ruined, just to be able to record 6 programmes at once (who DOES that?). I have never recorded more than 3 at once EVER. The v6 just seems completely unnecessary and making the service worse if you are a gamer. AND you will lose all recorded programmes on the old TIVO/V+. They can keep it!

[mrfreeman]

HA! Apparently the V6 does NOT need the Superhub 3!

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Virgin-TV-V6/V6-box-and-Superhub-3/td-p/3595564

But it still needs Hub 2, so if I could go through the whole shebang of getting one of those it would solve both problems.

[RidingTheFlow]

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@コナー wrote:

I had a lovely chat to a manager regarding this issue. Direct link to image

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"Everybody are just doing their job, Sir. Now don't let that door hit you on the way out".

[JitterBitter]

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@boltedenergy wrote:

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@WildWayz wrote:
Hub 3.0 device information
The information below shows the current status of this Hub 3.0.

Standard specification compliant : DOCSIS 3.0
Hardware version : 10
Software version : 9.1.116BA3

I am pinging the router gateway directly - PC straight into the SH3.

so this is the part of interest, your 'software' version is different to mine

Standard specification compliant	: DOCSIS 3.0
Hardware version	: 10
Software version	: 9.1.116V

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The thing is ICMP is fixed by the updates, not the issue. It just masks it. We've seen this with the Arris units that got it in 2016(?).

Whole fleet of intel based hardware should just be retired. 

[JohnGW75]

Those with the high latency/ping issues whilst gaming, is it daily, or certain days of the week? And is everyone on the same firmware version 9.1.116V.

Reason i ask is i'm on vivid 200 but since end oct my dl on speedtest isn't going above 117 Mbps and i've noticed my ping issues seem to be thursday through sunday inclusive, i have another engineer tomorrow although not sure why as last weeks replaced my cabling and router, so not sure if my issues are down to the puma6 or something more.