Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

[Datalink]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.

The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...

Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...

Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...

That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.

Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.

Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

[Adduxi]

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@shanematthews wrote:

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@Adduxi wrote:

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@shanematthews wrote:
 <SNIP>  ......., parents are easily pleased 😛

 Oi ! I'm a parent, and I'm not easily pleased ......   😉

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Then you're not a standard parent, the puma6 issue only affects gaming by any noticeable amount, if you're having issues loading up standard websites then thats a different issue altogether

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LOL, I think my attempt at humour was lost in translation ......   🙂

[wotusaw]

Immediately I switched over from a HUB2 to a HUB3 I noticed a 3 second delay occurring on my clan site which was not there before. It doesn't happen with EVERY site. Unfortunately for me it happens with this particular one which I use alot. Well, don't use alot now as the delay drives me nutzoid.

This modem does not ONLY **** up 'fps' gaming. I can absolutely assure you of that.

It really angers me that there continues to be a denial of the many problems with this Puma 6 chipset.

I signed up with Virgin Gamer in February and the problem is still not fixed.

Arrange these words..

'Bunny' 'not' 'a' 'happy'!!!!!!

[NeoVR]

Just come across this thread by chance....

Im guessing the Puma6 issue is not yet solved, and there is no solution for those with/soon-to-have Hub3 modems?

I have just signed back up for VM after a (relatively happy!!) year away with BT infinity....

I am seriously considering cancelling the order based on these hub3 findings  - Yes VM is much more competitive as a full package with TV etc, but arguably to me the 'net is more important as the only gaming i do is online...  It sounds like i need to re-evaluate my options..

[wotusaw]

This whole sorry story is not Virgins fault.

Don't think they are as boffinated up as BT are so they must have just believed they were being sold a good product and really lacked the expertise to know any different. Leastways that's what I make of it all, rightly or wrongly.

I was looking at BT Infinity 2 for when my contract runs out next February 2018. When I'm gaming online the HUB3 is frankly considered a bit of a joke. I gather this from the comments made to me by other players.

There's a post on Overclockers UK about this and BT Infinity is apparently better for gaming than Virgin. Most certainly now that Virgin have the HUB3.

Gaming with the HUB3 at present is pointless as far as 'fps' is concerned. The HUB3 seems to add roughly 200ms to a button press at random when ever it feels like it.

Average button press time is about 220ms. What this means is that most of the weapons in an 'fps' game become ineffective. We are talking shotguns/snipers. Well actually anything other than very fast firing weapons like small machine guns.

Virgin do have a good all round package. I will wait for a patch but if that's not here by next February then think it will be BT InfinIty 2 for me. Don't want to go BT as I hate them with a passion but must have my gaming 'fps' fix.

What you have to understand also is it ain't easy to quit any of these providers. You probably know this already.

Your really interested in 'internet'. That seems poor with the HUB3. When I changed over from the HUB2 to the HUB3 I did get an immediate 3 second page loading delay on my clan site, the BN Nitwitts on Enjin. This happened as soon as the modems were changed so the delay is definitely down to the HUB3.

Most other sites seem fine though Amazon also gets an increased page loading time with the HUB3. Go figure.

Generally I think this modem is 'poor' at present and it simply would not win against the BT Infinity gear even slightly in any contest except brute speed.

[PhilMull]

Being in complete denial is Virgins fault. Not allowing us to go back to the SH2 is Virgins fault and continuing to sell the SH3 is virgins fault.

[GMAN73]

Plus Virgin knew about the latency bug as this was highlighted in the trials yet they still rolled it out to customers.

[NeoVR]

Without a doubt - Infinity is better for gaming.. VM have the upper hand with the "shock and awe" of advertised big download speeds and a better value overall package, but Infinity has lower and more stable latency, and the speed is for the most part rock-solid. I have Samknows metrics to back this up.

In the last couple of years ive gone infinity--->vivid150/200---> infinity. --> My move back to VM was mainly for cost, the hope that the local over-subscription issues had been resolved in the last year, and a better TV service for the missus..

Having slept on it - the Puma6 and modem-mode issues are a dealbreaker for me.

[astrohominis]

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@PhilMull wrote:

Being in complete denial is Virgins fault. Not allowing us to go back to the SH2 is Virgins fault and continuing to sell the SH3 is virgins fault.

Exactly right.

And to add insult to injury, they had feed back on the issue in early testing, but management pushed through a subpar router anyway for business reasons.

Make no mistake, this was an absolutely *massive* supply contract. In terms of clout with large these conglomerates (eg Liberty Global) the decision making is largely political at this level. Cost can factor in somewhat, but technical is usually really far down the decision chain.

Source: Me -- Operated a consumer ISP for 15 years 😉

[wotusaw]

I surrender!

You are all absolutely right, it is Virgin's fault.

I was just being kind to them in the hope they would give me favours of an undisclosed kind.

For the love of all that's holy.......a fix has got to be near now!!!!!!

[DrunkMonk74]

Just cancelled my contract with VM. 30 days notice but all penalties waived. Back to BT for me! High Utilisation coupled with the horrible performance of the Super Hub 3 just makes VM a horrible solution for gaming.