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ravenstar68
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Message 21 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system


@chrisardy wrote:

I suspect that what I said is correct, that a VM email server had a fault which was sending blank replies to emails and I think that the fault has now been fixed.


So you've taken the easy option.

Instead of checking the email filter and autoreply settings yourself, you've let someone else do it.  And when no one comes up with an answer you've decided it's 'a server fault'

I have my own email server and I can tell you that they don't work that way.  If they're sending a response it's because there's a filter rule set up.  As for the excuse that "If it was my settings then it would happen to every mail." - That's not true.  Webmail can be set to perform actions only when certain trigger events are met.  Just like stand alone email clients can.

I would suggest you check the following yourself.

Holiday reply.
Email filters.

You can find these by clicking the Menu Icon (3 lines) in the top right of the webmail page and then selecting settings.

Tim

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Message 22 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system

I don't think I have taken any easy option. The easy option would be not to do anything about it at all.

I think you are being very condescending.

When I said the person checked my settings he asked me to go through them and tell him what they all were, I had already checked them myself.

I think it is quite reasonable that a server would have the sort of fault I described. I have been working with computers for over 50 years and I have experienced much stranger things than that.

If you think that computer equipment can't have faults I don't think you can have used them much.

This is obviously a fault somewhere because it suddenly started happening and as I haven't changed anything on the webmail and my settings are ok it must be somewhere else. Where would you suggest the fault is?

Also I spoke too soon because it has happened again this evening.

If VM were a professional company I would have expected them to contact me by now and asked for copies of the emails, which I have kept, so that they can do a proper investigation.

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ravenstar68
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Message 23 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system

"If you think that computer equipment can't have faults I don't think you can have used them much."

Now who's being condescending!

One of the things that cheeses me off on these Fora is people who come along with pre-conceived ideas of the cause of their issue.  For example one long held belief was that there was something on Virgin Media's servers that didn't like Apple IOS devices.  "After all Outlook works ok but my iPhone doesn't and there's plenty of other people having the same problem!"

That seems reasonable too - except it's completely wrong.  It turned out the issue was how iOS devices manage SMTP settings when an account is deleted.  (Apple have only recently patched that one out but there's still some interesting iOS bugs in the way they report certain SMTP errors).

Or how about the time that a user found that they couldn't send emails at 12:30am but they sent ok the next morning.

That's got to be a server error too doesn't it?  - Guess what - it wasn't in fact the servers were doing what they were supposed to do - that was eventually traced to a security DVR (in part because when it failed the problem went away until he got it back).

So if you feel I'm being condescending in stating that this is unlikely to be a server error - I don't care.

I work with what I know and I throw out any "reasonable" assumptions until someone provides me with proof that their assertion is correct.

Why don't you post up one of the email headers on here (with email addresses redacted - leave the domains in though)  Lets see what they tell us.

Tim

P.S.  If you check out my posting history on this Forum you'll see I've been active since 2011 and have concentrated on Email issues since 2013.  I've used email hosted with Zoho Mail, Gmail AND my own personal mail servers.  So when it comes to email issues, I'm no slouch.

As for not using computers much, I used to work for one of the big telecoms companies on the operator services.  I still remember the fault that would happen every time the clocks changed in October and March (I think because Windows and Unix would amend the time an hour apart).  I also used computers when working for Goodyear/Dunlop and in my most recent job - When our systems went down, I could tell from the symptoms which part of the system had gone down.

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chrisardy
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Message 24 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system

Here is the source info. from the latest Mail delivery failure email.

Return-Path: <>

Delivered-To: xxxxxx@ntlworld.com

Received: from md2.tb.ukmail.iss.local ([212.54.57.99])

by mc11.tb.ukmail.iss.local with LMTP id 8HwsAtCAQmDodQAAUgvSPA

for <xxxxx@ntlworld.com>; Fri, 05 Mar 2021 20:04:48 +0100

Received: from smtpq4.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net ([212.54.57.99])

by md2.tb.ukmail.iss.local with LMTP

id kEsiAtCAQmAoPQAAaJkqCg

(envelope-from <>)

for <xxxxxx@ntlworld.com>; Fri, 05 Mar 2021 20:04:48 +0100

Received: from Debian-exim by smtpq4.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net with local (Exim 4.86_2)

id 1lIFkm-0008N3-0U

for xxxxxx@ntlworld.com; Fri, 05 Mar 2021 20:04:48 +0100

X-Failed-Recipients: bounce@ssepayments.com

Auto-Submitted: auto-replied

From: Mail Delivery System <postmaster@virginmedia.com>

To: xxxxxx@ntlworld.com

Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary=1614971088-eximdsn-976352562

MIME-Version: 1.0

Subject: Mail delivery failed : returned to sender

Message-Id: <E1lIFkm-0008N3-0U@smtpq4.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net>

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 20:04:48 +0100

 

 

--1614971088-eximdsn-976352562

Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

 

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

 

You sent the following message, but this message could not be delivered to all recipients:

 

======================================================================

Subject: Auto: Your FITs meter reading is due

 

======================================================================

 

The following addresses failed:

 

 

bounce@ssepayments.com

retry timeout exceeded

 

--1614971088-eximdsn-976352562

Content-type: message/delivery-status

 

Reporting-MTA: dns; smtpq4.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net

 

Action: failed

Final-Recipient: rfc822;bounce@ssepayments.com

Status: 5.0.0

 

--1614971088-eximdsn-976352562

Content-type: message/rfc822

 

Return-path: <xxxxxxx@ntlworld.com>

Received: from [212.54.57.97] (helo=smtpq2.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net)

by smtpq4.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2)

(envelope-from <xxxxxx@ntlworld.com>)

id 1lIEgQ-00080J-AT

for bounce@ssepayments.com; Fri, 05 Mar 2021 18:56:14 +0100

Received: from [212.54.57.80] (helo=smtp1.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net)

by smtpq2.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2)

(envelope-from <xxxxxx@ntlworld.com>)

id 1lIEey-0008Tb-91

for bounce@ssepayments.com; Fri, 05 Mar 2021 18:54:44 +0100

Received: from mc11.tb.ukmail.iss.local ([172.25.161.142])

by smtp1.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net with ESMTP

id IEeylNTtM2h4mIEeylPx64; Fri, 05 Mar 2021 18:54:44 +0100

X-Env-Mailfrom: xxxxxx@ntlworld.com

X-Env-Rcptto: bounce@ssepayments.com

X-SourceIP: 172.25.161.142

X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=Y9A9DjSN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=60427064 cx=a_exe

a=46XI2RuSgBTndwtVpJmo8w==:117 a=KiCxJD0x+Pe5VASQKmYoJrcyuOo=:19

a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=tclcd6dtLQvEqt9_mmAA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10

a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=n87TN5wuljxrRezIQYnT:22

X-Sieve: Pigeonhole Sieve 0.4.24.2 (9471f26d)

Message-ID: <dovecot-sieve-1614966884-249046-0@mc11.tb.ukmail.iss.local>

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 18:54:44 +0100

From: <xxxxxx@ntlworld.com>

To: <bounce@ssepayments.com>

Subject: Auto: Your FITs meter reading is due

In-Reply-To: <BC2.SMTPPlusMessageInspector.1168217.2761071.17624120418.5524.2761071.17624120418.2103051254.BC2@ssepayments.com>

References: <BC2.SMTPPlusMessageInspector.1168217.2761071.17624120418.5524.2761071.17624120418.2103051254.BC2@ssepayments.com>

Auto-Submitted: auto-replied (vacation)

Precedence: bulk

X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfI6nJ2jJg9EzFeTOZwXsEtBQYVFaFotiT0kia1f7xHIMDTrQoNVO/fqy0/px9TBDQ2R56aR19SXA5JQLNzBCbofk2mOif7BTqJD3oC47/LybQtbtRQkh

Iqh/LL2oj1X4t7bI5b7JbLxFn7+Cty1HSem6dNm83+pQVa5MbFJa2Lj7i21ZGm3TRe1U6gblEos9omkYr2HvB2EgPfQ+0AYOVx0=

 

 

 

--1614971088-eximdsn-976352562--

 

 

Will be interested to know if you can conclude anything.

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ravenstar68
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Message 25 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system

It'd be fun to know what settings phone support had you read out to them.

Looking at the headers The Holiday (or out of office) response is enabled in webmail.

Clues:

X-Sieve: Pigeonhole Sieve 0.4.24.2 (9471f26d)
Message-ID: <dovecot-sieve-1614966884-249046-0@mc11.tb.ukmail.iss.local>

Auto-Submitted: auto-replied (vacation)

You won't get bounces for every mail sent, it will depend on the originating email address.

Tim

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chrisardy
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Message 26 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system

Thanks for your reply, we went through all the settings!

I have a number of queries:

1. I never changed any of the settings in the webmail until about 5 or 6 weeks ago when I put in some filters to try and stop the Norton/McAfee etc spam emails and I didn't change the holiday response settings. I didn't have any success with the filters although other people did and I copied their instructions exactly. These Mail delivery emails only started when the spam emails were stopped.

2. When these started I looked at the holiday response settings and I don't think it was enabled but I do remember the dates were always in the future starting the day after I was looking at it. Even if it was enabled why would it send a return email before the date that was set?

3. Why would a return email depend on the originating email address? The only ones I can think of, that you wouldn't want to send holiday notice emails to would be non return email addresses but some of these have been non return.

4. I sent some emails to the address today and the first one bounced a blank one back I then changed the settings and the next one didn't so I changed them back and the next 2 didn't bounce why should this happen?

5. I also noticed that if you enable the setting in Holiday Notice it disables it in Filter rules and vice versa!

I don't know how you would ever get the holiday notice to work because one or other of these rules would be disabled. Do you know the settings to get it to work if I ever decide to use it?

6. Are you able to say what the settings should normally be?

Chris

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ravenstar68
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Message 27 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system


@chrisardy wrote:

Thanks for your reply, we went through all the settings!

I have a number of queries:

1. I never changed any of the settings in the webmail until about 5 or 6 weeks ago when I put in some filters to try and stop the Norton/McAfee etc spam emails and I didn't change the holiday response settings. I didn't have any success with the filters although other people did and I copied their instructions exactly. These Mail delivery emails only started when the spam emails were stopped.

Which would end up pointing the finger at your filters

2. When these started I looked at the holiday response settings and I don't think it was enabled but I do remember the dates were always in the future starting the day after I was looking at it. Even if it was enabled why would it send a return email before the date that was set?

Holiday response is the most likely cause but I may be mistaken.  However the dovecot--sieve is a plugin to the IMAP server that manages filter rules..

3. Why would a return email depend on the originating email address? The only ones I can think of, that you wouldn't want to send holiday notice emails to would be non return email addresses but some of these have been non return.

There are a number of ways of dealing with replies to an address that doesn't expect replies

  • bounce the email
  • drop the email quietly
  • accept the email and then periodically clear the mailbox with a cron job.

4. I sent some emails to the address today and the first one bounced a blank one back I then changed the settings and the next one didn't so I changed them back and the next 2 didn't bounce why should this happen?

It's been a while since I went into webmail, and I'm now locked out as I'm no longer a VM customer BUT IIRC the holiday response options included an option to ignore mails sent within a certain time period of each other.

5. I also noticed that if you enable the setting in Holiday Notice it disables it in Filter rules and vice versa!

I don't think so - Holiday Notice is a specialised filter rule.  You can delete the filter but the next time you enable Holiday Notice the filter is automatically re-added.  I know because I tried.

I don't know how you would ever get the holiday notice to work because one or other of these rules would be disabled. Do you know the settings to get it to work if I ever decide to use it?

See my answer above.

6. Are you able to say what the settings should normally be?

@用心棒 might be able to do a screenshot to help.  However the settings are fairly intuitive - especially for someone with 50 years of experience using computers.

Chris


 

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ravenstar68
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Message 28 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system

@用心棒 

I don't know about you but I feel that @chrisardy is trying to catch me out with his questions.

@chrisardy - While I might not have access to Virgin Media's webmail platform anymore - have a look at a comparable filter from my own server.

Return-Path: <>
Delivered-To: myaddress@blueyonder.co.uk
Received: from md8.tb.ukmail.iss.local ([212.54.57.79])
	by mc60.tb.ukmail.iss.local with LMTP id cKFNGS3gQ2DXXQAADOOQZg
	for <myaddress@blueyonder.co.uk>; Sat, 06 Mar 2021 21:03:57 +0100
Received: from smtpclienthelo ([212.54.57.79])
	by md8.tb.ukmail.iss.local with LMTP
	id gKAqGS3gQ2ABewAAkRb9eQ
	(envelope-from <>)
	for <myaddress@blueyonder.co.uk>; Sat, 06 Mar 2021 21:03:57 +0100
Received: from box.timothydutton.co.uk ([51.195.149.130])
	by mx12.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net with ESMTP
	id Id9YlQS9Hy3rJId9YlNdK6; Sat, 06 Mar 2021 21:03:56 +0100
X-Env-Mailfrom: 
X-Env-Rcptto: myaddress@blueyonder.co.uk
X-SourceIP: 51.195.149.130
X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=YPBadTKx c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=6043e02d cx=a_exe:a_idp_d
 a=M2gbjKNu4OlC6ty/svOfog==:117 a=M2gbjKNu4OlC6ty/svOfog==:17
 a=KiCxJD0x+Pe5VASQKmYoJrcyuOo=:19 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=dESyimp9J3IA:10
 a=NXMYptY8z9ZqujTQwLIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=QYH75iMubAgA:10
 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=n87TN5wuljxrRezIQYnT:22
Received: by box.timothydutton.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 8)
	id 1C71817E4BC; Sat,  6 Mar 2021 20:03:56 +0000 (GMT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=timothydutton.co.uk;
	s=mail; t=1615061036;
	bh=HearxtaZ1i1CC0SzI2jcvczrjGL79TnKgDGASs1KTSg=;
	h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From;
	b=WbT+WCEcBHGg+mS2Z0P9FyJaKOQzQuKN6lTeX3hCCxIxG/5Lf9kjTfTpixI5EPkwW
	 X1RkmkfRrFRSfPw/2VyhBOOvPywjSGE4pNaSboKklEl0QCROCTeIPKEKb9TnVeJz1V
	 DePmI9WdWz2naKeP66h9v4iYaXJHtqAHd4MQs1DIQ5eVxdeAI5R/h9xTCuZ1BFSdau
	 SQNUqFOGh4QNC0cWjcg3JNHM6Fu9lkyiCgR05IbfwEHDdujD4f2j2Gz1V6lR+YD+0g
	 aontiOGljKXRo7jl0fM4Xeltk3JM/jCF+T1ZPowo7sNcrE63DwIlkaHCP6/2/WOuAi
	 QlaiVtJg9+IuA==
X-Sieve: Pigeonhole Sieve 0.4.21 (92477967)
Message-ID: <dovecot-sieve-1615061036-98904-0@box.timothydutton.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 20:03:56 +0000
From: <me@timothydutton.co.uk>
To: <myaddress@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Auto-Response
In-Reply-To: <002901d712c3$d3c75e20$7b561a60$@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <002901d712c3$d3c75e20$7b561a60$@blueyonder.co.uk>
Auto-Submitted: auto-replied (vacation)
Precedence: bulk
X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfA/nOeXiS0Nz7Nzeuyqv9BSTCAA3YNaSITwuJ8Apm6b8USWxcPGZyrVr3jvTn/wJ/5hVTGsGIb82heF1jIkDw93uJQN6PD30bzAFYhFxdWg5K1X/AYxq
 UxJtswoY/eLYwgSMAQsuTc7E8OpdolV9K2A/kjZik6FbCCbrp4Q4Mw0JZdkZkldiSgJ84c8b33oarg==

Sorry, I'm out of office at the moment, I'll respond on my return

The only significant difference is here:

Return-Path: <>

But that is because my server is set up to deliver vacation notices with an empty envelope-sender  (which is the default).  By rights VM could have left that setting as default - BUT - then some mail exchangers behave badly and drop such messages even though that is strictly forbidden in the RFC's governing email standards.  So there are valid reasons for VM choosing the setting they have.

Tim

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Message 29 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system


@ravenstar68 wrote:

@chrisardy wrote:

5. I also noticed that if you enable the setting in Holiday Notice it disables it in Filter rules and vice versa!

I don't think so - Holiday Notice is a specialised filter rule.  You can delete the filter but the next time you enable Holiday Notice the filter is automatically re-added.  I know because I tried.

I don't know how you would ever get the holiday notice to work because one or other of these rules would be disabled. Do you know the settings to get it to work if I ever decide to use it?

See my answer above.


 


AFAICS the Holiday Notice setting and Vacation Notice filter rule reference the same data source making the behaviour described likely due to the data's current state not being reflected in the user interface; it would be unusual to see such an issue when navigating between the Holiday Notice settings and Filter Rules within the same tab as the data is retrieved each time.




6. Are you able to say what the settings should normally be?

@用心棒 might be able to do a screenshot to help.  However the settings are fairly intuitive - especially for someone with 50 years of experience using computers.


 


Holiday Notice's default settings can be restored by deleting the vacation notice filter:
2021-03-06.jpeg

 

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Message 30 of 34
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Re: Mail delivery system


@ravenstar68 wrote:

@用心棒 

I don't know about you but I feel that @chrisardy is trying to catch me out with his questions.

May feel like that but IMHO is just cognitively rolling back from the misinformation received earlier.

There can be no doubt that the Vacation Notice filter rule caused the issue as evident by presence of the X-Sieve and Auto-Submitted headers; how it came to be is one of those “God and I know” to now “God only knows” moments.

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