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Timwilky
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Decent upload when?

I have been upgraded to M600 and speeds are better than estimated. But when oh when will VM start providing a decent upload?

I  have to say when fibre gets to my neck of the woods I will be off like the proverbial robbers dog.

 

I  need decent upload. 200Mb type speeds. Not paltry 40-50Mb. The VM model is based about an old idea of home users using the Internet for browsers. Not for cloud storage etc I am trying to shift large amounts of files and it is taking 3 hours plus.

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apcyberax
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Re: Decent upload when?

docsis is designed for download. Most ISP have much lower upload then download even over fiber.

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Timwilky
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Re: Decent upload when?

Yes I fully understand the asynchronous model. But if VM deployed 3.1 for upload as well as download decent speeds should be possible.

Andruser
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Re: Decent upload when?

You mean full duplex DOCSIS (FD).  VM didn't deploy that as part of their D3.1 rollout because although the standards nominally exist, not all necessary equipment does (eg, I don't believe there's any full duplex DOCSIS hubs in existence outside a research lab, nor are CMTS proven to be FD capable, and upstream backhaul won't have been provisioned anywhere near the capacity to deliver FD).  Nor would VM have believed there was any business case for building out that capability across circa 5m customers - most of us don't need 200+ Mbps, we'd just be happy for our 10/20/45 upload to work at the advertised speed and without VM's current crop of latency problems.

FD might arrive with DOCSIS 4, which (if VM do ever adopt that) wouldn't start roll out until 2025-26 at the earliest because it'll only be then that the D3.1 investments will have been amortised.  There's a further problem, that the equipment makers don't yet have confidence in the likelihood of FD rollout to invest in product development, which may mean that FD remains a slow burn development and so might be looking at a 2028-2032 timescale for earliest customer rollout. 

Covid has revealed some inherent limitations in DOCSIS when combined with VM's capacity planning and contention ratios, and in the timescales suggested above, there's perhaps more chance of material developments via Openreach FTTP, which as a technology is two decades ahead of DOCSIS.  With the roll out of FTTP threatening to eliminate VM's long standing speed advantage, will it make financial sense for VM to invest yet more in a complex and arguably obsolete technology like DOCSIS?

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gitty
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Re: Decent upload when?

You don't need DOCSIS 4.0 to increase the upload. A lot of operators have begun deploying the high-split option in 3.1 (a physical change to the plant is required). They can then offer 500-1000 Mbps.
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Andruser
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Re: Decent upload when?

If it were easy and cheap they'd have done it already, because so much of the network is buckling under the problems of a saturated upstream. As with much of DOCSIS, there's stuff that can be done at a test level or in theory, that's not necessarily reflected in customer propositions for many years.  Also seems very unlikely that they'd be making physical change to the plant part way through the roll out of a national D3.1.  The time to do the architecture and implementation of high-split would have been alongside D3.1, one has to presume that the technology was considered, maybe a business case was tested and found wanting. 

You have previously commented that FD can be implemented in CMTS software, that may be true, but absent a capable hub and backhaul capacity to support it that's a chocolate teapot capability.  As always I'll bow to your technical knowledge, but comment that VM don't appear to be making obvious progress on upstream capacity, and therefore I'll stick by my reckoning that we won't see material improvements in upload speeds and capacities before the mid to late 2020s.  

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gitty
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Re: Decent upload when?

Full Duplex DOCSIS (FDX) is not a software-only implementation. It requires a lot of physical work. I have said that Low Latency DOCSIS is a change in software. 🙂

VM is already in the process of changing the architecture of their network. They are deploying Remote PHY (very big change to the nodes and to the fiber feeding them). It is not unimaginable that they may upgrade other parts of the plant also.
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gitty
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Re: Decent upload when?

You are right about FDX not being available today. It was added to 3.1, but it was also taken out again. It will come as an option in 4.0.
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Andruser
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Re: Decent upload when?

I'm sure they are considering upgrading plant all over the network - maintaining and improving any network is a job that never ends.  But it still requires a business case to pass hurdle rates before they'll make any investment, and I can't see that higher upload speeds are going to offer additional returns because too few customers will value those higher speeds.

And if I understand high-split correctly, that doesn't create new bandwidth, it's "just" re-parsing the bandwidth already available to allow greater upload.  Any competent spectrum evolution plan would only start changing the spectrum and split after the basic D3.1 roll out has been completed and bedded in.  As VM appear to customarily operate close to the margin when it comes to utilisation of downstream capacity, I'm unconvinced that they would be willing to trade downstream capacity (that has always been their USP) to create higher upstream speeds that people aren't clamouring for.  If VM extend the upper spectrum then that should create some additional headroom, but again, that isn't going to be a quick, simple or cheap thing to do - you know all this better than I do, and to do high-split they need to modify every single CMTS, amp and device with filtering on the network, even if that's only for the filtering.   Even then, for a business the size of VM that several hundred thousand pieces of kit.  Then there's the local issues like noise from cascading amps, that in some areas would require new nodes and re-segmentation, typically in high density urban areas where it's difficult and costly to do this.  Of course, there's the possibility of putting all the TV content onto SDV and releasing huge amounts of existing HFC spectrum, but surely then we're talking about needing new hubs and TV boxes all round, plus changing the content despatch systems (of which I know less than nothing). 

At a technical level, certainly all of this can be done.  But it all looks very complex, very expensive, and would need to fit within a network architecture strategy, and logically I simply can't see occurring for another five years even if the prep works are being done now.  I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.

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apcyberax
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Message 10 of 12
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Re: Decent upload when?

i don't think VM will spend much post on docsis now.
They are installing FTTP in area now and i don't see them spending the billions it will cost to upgrade the coax network. They are more likey to spend the money on full fiber.

What they should do is offer some FTTP only packages. If you are in a FTTP area they should sell something like the FTTPGig package with different uplaods.

maybe FTTP area can get
500/200
1000/500
etc

At a higher cost of course as the bandwidth has to be supportable upstream

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