Menu
Reply
Highlighted
  • 8
  • 0
  • 0
Tuning in
185 Views
Message 1 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Missed hops and routing query

Hi all. Virgin Media customer since September and very happy with it all until I encountered issues with a webinar provider I use for virtual events.

My Virgin Media speed is great, but if I traceroute any domain or IP, google, Yahoo etc, I see hops missed and really slow routing connections.

In every single case hops 2 and 4 are *** star's. In a lot of cases 6 and 8 are missed hops as well.

Despite the fact I have great speeds from my Virgin Media connection, these issues are causing significant packet loss for routing especially to the US.

I had an engineer out today, who found nothing at home and said he doesn't know if there are issues locally, or regionally. But when I called the Virgin Media support line and when they booked that engineer visit, the lady I spoke to said she could see significant issues that would be affecting my connection (hence sending an engineer, who then found nothing).

So am at a loss (excuse the pun) for what is causing me to have significant routing and packet loss issues, even when my speed appears great at first glance.

I set up a BQM and it showed absolutely fine service, then went to solid red. After the engineers visit it showed ok again for a time, but now is back to solid red again... But still speed is fine.

My BQM: 

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/6a82f95cab867d1e6c65fdef71931d14691a4bfa

It seems to me the routing issues are causing significant package loss, but that's not my hub or local connection, rather something more prevalent.

If it helps I'm in the Brighton area and looking at social media many people have been discussing packet loss here in recent weeks.

Appreciate any help or thoughts as to what is going on!

Steve.

0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 117
  • 11
  • 29
On our wavelength
164 Views
Message 2 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

"Missed" hops (indicated by teh * * *) are nothing to worry about - it indicates that the device you're passing through does not respond to ICMP requests (which traceroute uses) and is a configurable setting that the owner of the device has decided to switch off..  as long as you eventually arrive at the destination, any * * * on the way aren't important.

The issue, i suspect, is that your video conference software uses UDP to send/receive traffic.. unfortunately, the VM HUB3 & 4 both seem to have issues with high volumes of UDP traffic that result in packet loss.. 

Options are:

1. use the hub in modem mode with your laptop/pc directly connected to the hub - this will result in you losing your wireless network as the hub will no longer be working in "router" mode and it will only be able to service your laptop/pc

2. use the hub in modem mode and buy a router / wireless mesh system to connect to the hub, then connect any other devices to the "new" network that your router provides.

I can't guarantee that either will work as I still use a Hub2AC (specifically to avoid the issues that the newer hubs have with UDP traffic...) others on the forum might be able to speak to how well this will work though..  

0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 1.39K
  • 109
  • 197
Knows their stuff
149 Views
Message 3 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

Modem mode didn't really work for me for UDP traffic on the HUB3, although thankfully I could disable UDP in the apps that I use and they fall-back to TCP which then gives a rock solid connection. With UDP on it kind of works but constantly disconnects with timeout errors, which I assume is packet loss. 

0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 8
  • 0
  • 0
Tuning in
127 Views
Message 4 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

Thank you, really helpful!

V. disappointed to hear that Virgin Media are throttling traffic that comes from some of the currently most widely used applications. Seems a little backwards...

Any ideas if it's possible to set up port forwarding rules to allow this UDP traffic a direct route through the firewall?

On option 1, unfortunately losing the wireless network isn't an option, as my wife also works from home now.

I'm connected via a powerline adapter, so it is a cable LAN of sorts. I do also have a Google wifi mesh network, so could try that, although preferable would be a way to allow this traffic through explicitly.

What is a Hub2AC? You mean an old standard Virgin Media hub?

Thank you!
0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 8
  • 0
  • 0
Tuning in
126 Views
Message 5 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

Thanks!

Someone has suggested I could block the high-range UDP ports on my laptop which should force it to use TCP for those connections. Might try this today and will report back if any luck with it.

Solution really seems to be in Virgin Media not affecting traffic for widely used routing standards, given the prevalence of video conferencing and webinars these days.
0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 117
  • 11
  • 29
On our wavelength
122 Views
Message 6 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

It’s not a case of throttling, it’s a fundamental probelm with teh hardware.. if you can force your application to use TCP rather than UDP then you may see an improvement, but TCP isn’t ideal for video conferencing..

port forwarding isn’t going to help i’m afraid - the issue is with the volume of UDP packets the hub is having to process.. 

as for blocking high-ports, if you’re going to do this i would suggest trying to do this at an application level (so that it only impacts the VC application you use - i’ afraid that i’m not that familiar with the windows firewall and have no idea if this is possible), rather than across the board, there’s no telling what other issues you may experience with other applications that rely on high ports..

what application are you using for VC?  Have you searched the options to see if you can force it to use tcp rather than UDP?

 


@Spiralize23 wrote:

What is a Hub2AC? You mean an old standard Virgin Media hub?


Yup - old hub, think it was their main hub 5 - 6 years ago..

0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 1.39K
  • 109
  • 197
Knows their stuff
110 Views
Message 7 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

Yes, I've noticed that if you block UDP, applications such as Teams work much better, with less drop outs during calls. Which is ironic, because UDP normally works better over unreliable TCP connections! 

You might find this useful:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/skypeforbusiness/plan-your-deployment/network-requirements/ports-an...

 

0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 8
  • 0
  • 0
Tuning in
93 Views
Message 8 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

Thanks, helpful again.

It's with a webinar platform, On24.

How useful is the old hub, as in does it support the speeds VM now offers? If so I may try to procure one...
0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 8
  • 0
  • 0
Tuning in
92 Views
Message 9 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

Thanks! I've made some changes to a packet filter on my Macbook to test this out, blocking UDP 40,000 to 49,999. Not a desirable solution though really...

I believe TCP tries to correct lost video packets, so can cause some issues if this happens in a system with some lag. But better than unusable due to loss that isn't being corrected by UDP.

Any thoughts on the router settings for port forwarding / filtering etc? Might there be a way to open up those ports to UDP traffic more cleanly using the advanced settings on the Hub 3?
0 Kudos
Reply
Highlighted
  • 1.39K
  • 109
  • 197
Knows their stuff
90 Views
Message 10 of 20
Flag for a moderator

Re: Missed hops and routing query

I try and avoid changing any options on the VM router as it's likely to change them again on it's own or forget them at some point, so the only change I make is router mode as I don't trust it with anything else (and it doesn't even do that 100% properly...) 

I don't know the maximum speed of the Sh2ac, but I think it might be about 350mbps ? The problem is that if you manage to get one you've got to persuade VM customer services to allow it on the network, and that chance of that happening is slim to none... 

0 Kudos
Reply