Installation Shambles

[VMShambles]

Moved house 4th November, booked Virgin in advance to carry out installation on the 9th. I was told there would be no problems and I can definitely have Virgin on the 9th which was obviously not the case.

Engineer turned up and pre-pull work is required, installation now 30th November. Call after call after call and surprise surprise despite being told numerous times it’s been done/will be done today/will be done tomorrow… never been done!

Constant wrong information, no update in a month whatsoever without me calling. Not even the courtesy to say I don’t need to be in tomorrow for the installation as it’s definitely not happening! Virgin don’t seem to realise people need to schedule time off work to be around for their missed appointments. 

The company employed by Virgin to do the work are apparently not contactable by Virgin despite the contract they have with them. 

Clearly the long term custom is not appreciated, if anyone from Virgin (UK!) would like to discuss further please get in touch.

[Andrew-G · Accepted solution]

Search the forum for the topic of delayed installations.  Read a few of the longer threads, and you'll know the score.

For a quick summary, VM might connect you (and they might not), if they do it may be tomorrow it could be months away, and in either case it'll be without any accurate information beforehand.  And to add insult to injury, even if they do connect you there's a chance they'll obfuscate and even lie to minimise their obligation to pay the delayed reconnection compensation of £8.40 a day (that's the loss of service rate, not the delayed new connection rate).

[VMShambles]

Thanks Andrew,

For anyone else interested I received the below today from Avonline who carry out the external work, so Virgin blame them but it appears to be with Virgin. Very little seems to have happened in a month, if you’re in the same situation awaiting pre-pull then probably just look elsewhere!

‘Virgin are in control as they have to approve the extension of the network then send a work order for us to dig. To do this we need a permit from the council and when this has been received we can install cable and a cabinet.

We then have to run the cable from the cabinet to your house then Virgin can come and install the internet.

Timescales depend on Virgins decision and then the council issuing a permit.’

[Andrew-G]

There are some companies are in the delivery trade - not parcels and post, but that they do "stuff", they deliver on their promises whether that's as a product or a service.  If they make a promise, they do their utmost to keep it, they own those promises, and work to put things right quickly when they go wrong, they hold their contractors to account.  Others are in the sales and marketing trade.  These companies don't deliver stuff, they just make promises to secure a sale, sales are celebrated and highly rewarded, delivery of the promise is not celebrated or rewarded, they then often don't keep those promises, they don't own problems, they blame their subcontractors but don't fix broken processes, all that matters is getting that sale.  You can guess which camp VM are in.  Whether it's marketing freebies, installations, repulls, mobile trade ins, frontline customer service, delivering "free" Netflix, it's all the same for VM - outsourced badly, cheaply, without thought.

When it gets to compensation-o'clock, VM will almost certainly try and insist that they are liable only from the date that the council issued the necessary permit (it's called a "Section 50").  In reality, it's clear in this and the vast majority of similar cases that they do or should have known sufficient about network condition that a permit would be necessary, and applied for this during the typically two week lead time they quote for most new connections or re-pulls, or the months notice they normally get on a house move.  When they do apply for a permit, councils are usually vastly more efficient than legend has it, and issue an S50 permit in a couple of days for straightforward works by a statutory undertaker like VM, BT, gas, leccy or water companies or contractors.  If this happens you'll need to contact your local council's streetworks team and find out when a permit was applied for and when it was issued, and when VM still refuse to pay up, take the matter to CISAS.

If it's not straightforward (eg requires digging across a road, or where working under pavements where the underground environment is heavily congested with lots of other pipes, cables and ducts) then the permit won't take any longer to get, but VM will very likely cancel the installation, because the cost for in-carriageway streetworks or complex hand-dig work is much higher than an easy installation.  There's a fixed VM budget for installing cables, and for a single property that budget wouldn't generally cover any work in the vehicle carriageway, or more than a few metres of digging under an uncongested pavement.  If this is the situation, then when Avonline give them a quote above the budget, VM will cancel your install.  Chances of you being told are low.  In this case, VM have to keep paying compensation up to and thirty days beyond the date that they issue a formal "cease notice" that they intend not to pay compensation.  In these forums we've never heard of anybody who's received a cease notice, so if this applies to you, well worth standing on your rights and taking the matter to CISAS. 

I must say as a 25+ year cable customer, and an active member of this forum for about six or more years, I've seen VM get worse and worse and worse.  When the service works and you don't need to contact the company it's good - but if you do need to contact the company it's grim, and out of contract pricing is very high.  I'd only recommend VM to somebody who really had no viable alternative.  In fact, I've got an order in for an Openreach/Aquiss FTTP connection.  Soon I'll be connected to a modern network, have an easy choice of supplier when my contract ends (though expectations with Aquiss are high, so I'm not planning on jumping ship from new customer offer to new customer offer), and the only contact I'll need to have with VM is writing a cancellation letter.  Oooohhh yes, I'm looking forward to the day!

[VMShambles]

Are Virgin still liable to pay the compensation up to date if I cancel and choose another provider?

I’ve today had an email to say installation will be on the 30th December… great!

[Kath_F]

Hi VMShambles, 

Thanks for your post and welcome to the forums. It's great having you on board with us in the Community although I am sorry to hear about your install delay. 

Whilst this isn't ideal, it does happen on occasions due to the way we provide our network. Sometimes this can take around 10 weeks to complete depending on the issue at hand. 

Whilst we're not able to expedite things, I'm happy to take a look at things for you to have the latest update. I can also get a complaint raised to ensure the relevant teams are aware. 

To do this I will need some information from you in order to help. I have sent you a private message regarding this and will investigate further once I receive your reply. Just click on the little plum envelope at the top right hand side of the page to access your inbox.

Thanks,

[Kath_F]

Hi VMShambles, 

Thanks for sticking with me via private message. As we're no longer swapping any account sensitive information, this can go back to the public space. 

I am sorry you feel the way you do. I did mention in my first post that we're unable to expedite things and only able to offer the latest update on the account and get an official complaint raised and assigned over to the relevant team which is what I've done for you. 

The teams are able to make calls but we're not able to arrange call backs or make calls via the forum as we're an online team who only deal with the Social and online side of things. By this I mean we pick up Facebook, Twitter and Instagram interactions as well as look after the forums. 

We can only go by the notes on the system and unfortunately that's not a lot but the information I've given is what usually happens during the delayed period. Our Pre-Install teams will be in constant contact with Avonline regarding the work. 

The 10 weeks usually starts from the first failed install. It's not a certain date as sometimes things can extend beyond that however that's usually a minimum. 

In terms of the contract, this doesn't start until you are installed so if you no longer wish to have services then you can cancel but just so you are aware, this stops any work from continuing so should you want services in future it would go back to the beginning. 

If you would like to discuss things further, or cancel things then you'll need to call the pre-installations team on 0345 454 1111. 

Apologies once again. 

Thanks, 

[VMShambles]

As we're now back in the public space...

If anyone has a similar issue in the future please just move on and do not wait for Virgin Media as you could be months' without service.

If you do wish to hold on then do not bother chasing via Social Media, this forum or the phone as you will be met with incorrect information, lies, not being taken seriously, a total lack of empathy, a communications provider that cannot effectively communicate with you as a customer or amongst departments/their contractors, no updates or care to pro-actively seek one, guess work as to the delays, tone deaf responses and a generic 'I'm sorry for this' over and over again.

Expect your installation date to just pass with no word from Virgin and then receive an email shortly after with a new installation date a month down the line which will also be missed.

[jem101]

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@VMShambles wrote:

As we're now back in the public space...

If anyone has a similar issue in the future please just move on and do not wait for Virgin Media as you could be months' without service.

If you do wish to hold on then do not bother chasing via Social Media, this forum or the phone as you will be met with incorrect information, lies, not being taken seriously, a total lack of empathy, a communications provider that cannot effectively communicate with you as a customer or amongst departments/their contractors, no updates or care to pro-actively seek one, guess work as to the delays, tone deaf responses and a generic 'I'm sorry for this' over and over again.

Expect your installation date to just pass with no word from Virgin and then receive an email shortly after with a new installation date a month down the line which will also be missed.

---

And all of this is fairly good advice, it would appear that VM's installation process is somewhat 'fragile' shall we say? If it all works out, which I'm sure it must in the majority of cases, then everything is fine. The issues always seem to be when things don't turn out to be straightforward - in which case it does seem that all four wheels instantly fall off of the VM wagon and everyone is left floundering. And this is entirely a procedural issue - I'm sure that everyone realises and accepts that things can, and sometimes do, go wrong, there are unexpected issues, staff problem etc. And similarly everyone would be understanding about this, IF, VM were just to communicate this and explain why the reason(s) are and give realistic expectations.

The problem is that VM's senior management have decided that it is better to have a system where this just doesn't happen, cable pulls are all (mostly) outsourced, which in itself is fine, but then VM appear to completely abrogate themselves of any responsibility to provide oversight of the process, or to be in the slightest bothered about whether or not it is done in a timely fashion, or the quality of the work. In a bazaar way, if you were to call VM's customer services (and for related reasons, I will use the term 'services' in its loosest possible connotation), and they were to be honest and say, 'sorry, it's with our contractors, and we simply don't know when or it it will be done' I suspect this would be less blood pressure raising than the reality where they simply say 'yes I can see on that this is scheduled to be done TODAY'. Which is an outright lie, (OK, well I assume it does really say on the screen that it will be done today, it's just that the  claim has has nothing to back it up - VM simply DON'T KNOW, what the situation is), but, again, the way they have structured their support system is to incentivise the call centre workers to say something, anything to get you off the line. The fact that when the '100% guaranteed promise' doesn't materialise and the prospective customer gets even more irate, less inclined to carry on with VM and indeed go out of their way to positively eviscerate the company on social media, doesn't seem to register!

I honestly do have a considerable degree of sympathy with the forum team here - they are (I suspect) employed by VM's marketing department, I believe they are good people who generally want to help and must feel really frustrated by how difficult it is for even them to cut through VM's Byzantine systems and actually produce a positive result for the poor customers. And at the same time, navigate the tricky path between providing help and assistance, and at the same time not revealing the truth of the shambolic mess that exists behind the curtains at VM towers - after all outright saying that your employers are incompetent isn't generally a good career move, is it.

Now a good example of this are the comments from Kath above; just read between the lines of some of the comments and see what you conclude from them. I'll give a couple of examples;

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Whilst this isn't ideal, it does happen on occasions due to the way we provide our network. Sometimes this can take around 10 weeks to complete depending on the issue at hand.

---

OK, what does that mean? 'The way we provide our network'? But, they provide their network via a physical cable - like every other ISP, or maybe she is referring to the way the organisation is setup to provide it - ie badly!

Whilst we're not able to expedite things, I'm happy to take a look at things for you to have the latest update. I can also get a complaint raised to ensure the relevant teams are aware.

---

OK they can't expedite things, which is fair enough but a reasonable person might then wonder what point they are then. Get a complaint raised? Does that actually help in a meaningful way? The relevant teams are fully aware, they just can't be bothered to get around to actually getting you connected up.

We can only go by the notes on the system and unfortunately that's not a lot but the information I've given is what usually happens during the delayed period. Our Pre-Install teams will be in constant contact with Avonline regarding the work.

---

Why is there not a lot of information? Is there any information on the notes, indeed are there any notes? What information has she given regarding what usually happens during a delayed period - is the answer, well nothing at all really? The 'teams' are in constant contact with the Avonline (well I suppose at least that's an official acknowledgement that this work is all outsourced and VM have no direct control over it), fine and has this constant contact achieved anything, maybe they were just discussing England's chances in Qatar every day?

But you see what I mean, Kath as a forum team representative has to respond and say something, but how frustrating it must be for her to know what a shambles the underlying system is, be obliged, because it's her job, to respond but say something which a) gives you no meaningful help, because they don't have any to give and b) not put herself out of a job by January! I'm sure that you can glean other insights from what deliberately isn't said!

OK bottom line, for anyone finding themselves in a similar situation; 

By all means don't be put off from signing up with VM, when it all works (and it does seem to in the majority of cases) it's fine. You will be given an initial installation date (note this is NOT a provisional date, despite what some might claim), keep said date in mind. At some point prior to this, then VM's contractors should pitch up and do the pre-install cable run, they may or may not let you know when this is - but as you are not technically required to be there, then if they do give a date and fail to turn up, there's no compensation for that.

But imagine that the install date (let's say 5th January) comes and goes and either nobody turns up or they do but say they can't connect you because the cables haven't been run. You are now entitled to compensation of £5.25 for the first day's delay plus £26 for the 'missed appointment' - now I fully expect VM to argue the latter, but it is intended to compensate you for your time in staying home pointlessly as nothing could be done, when, no doubt you had better things to do. Note that if VM give you at least 24 hours notice that the appointment will be missed then the £26 doesn't count but the £5.25 does.

Anyhow VM now reschedule for say, 15th January, and the same happens, or maybe they actually get it all done, then you are entitled to 11 days at £5.25 credit, and of course if they fail again to connect you and don't give the 24 hours notice, then that's another £26.

Now by this point, you are really starting to wonder if it is a good idea, so my advice is to start to look at alternative suppliers, what can they offer, what lead times can they provide? Set yourself a mental deadline, ie if VM isn't installed by, oh 1st Feb, say, you will sign up with xyz broadband provider instead.

If and when said deadline arrives with no further progress then simply sign up with xyz provider, but absolutely DO NOT cancel the VM install. If by a miracle VM get you connected up then cancel with xyz, otherwise enjoy your, probably slower but better than non-existent, alternative connection. Except you haven't cancelled with VM, simply don't bother chasing it, forget about it, if you get another 'install date' and it isn't cancelled then make sure you are in on that day - another £26. 

Eventually, sometime, it all gets connected up, you check it and it's all fine. You then call VM and cancel without any penalty under the 14 day cooling-off period statutory rights. You pay nothing, but, here's the rub, you are still entitled to compensation of £5.25 for each and every day since 5th January, plus any missed appointments. Why would you do this? Well it is effectively 'free' money, there may be a degree of 'schadenfreude' in knowing that it will cost VM a not inconsiderable sum to get you connected up, for which they won't receive a penny back, and lastly, you know that the cables are all in place and working if you wanted to give VM another go in the future.

Not, I add, that it will always be plain sailing getting the required compensation, VM representatives (not usually the forum team members here, but there have been at least one occasion which I have called out, oddly enough said post by both parties were quietly removed) will attempt to confuse, obfuscate the issues or indeed outright lie as to what you are entitled to. And that's fine, there are a few hoops which you have to jump through, but there are a few of us on here who really do know how the procedures, regulations and, ultimately, the Law, works and can advise accordingly.

John

[VMShambles]

Thanks John for the excellent advice and further understanding to my case.