Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

[Datalink]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.

The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...

Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...

Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...

That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.

Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.

Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

[Sky_Lord]

The hardware Virgin chose for the SH4 I can guarantee, will be whatever is the cheapest it can get. The era we live in is all about cost cutting and bugger all to do with investing in your brand or customer service.

Sad times we live in. It’s all about management maximising their bonus and they will walk over who ever gets in their way and give a crap service as long as they increase their personal bank balance.

[donniem]

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@Andrew-G wrote:

I offer you Virginmedia's new marketing strapline that exemplifies their disregard for customers: "Because you're not worth it".

---

Same impression I get. Communication about this Puma issue has been non-existant it's kind of mind-blowing. Virgin exists purely to get as many punters on their lines as possible, they don't seem to care about much else (not talking about the frontline staff here). It puts me off taking out any other contracts with them i.e. Virgin Mobile

[wotusaw]

sky_lord@

"The hardware Virgin chose for the SH4 I can guarantee, will be whatever is the cheapest it can get. The era we live in is all about cost cutting and bugger all to do with investing in your brand or customer service.

Sad times we live in. It’s all about management maximising their bonus and they will walk over who ever gets in their way and give a crap service as long as they increase their personal bank balance."

Unfortunately think you are absolutely on the button there. Money will make them happy for a short while but cannot protect them from life and all it's various complications and surprises.

However we are going to find out about the HUB 4, are we not......those that are still with Virgin by then. Like you feel it's a high probability the same sad story will be repeated.

Hopefully Virgin will come back and deliver the goods. Sometimes just one good soul amongst a hoard of management demons can bring about a change.

[Nejones1981]

Hi guys does anyone know if the hub 2 ac runs well on the gamer 200 package ? I sure I read somewhere that it doesn't but I can't find the post anymore.

cheers 

[BrokenFibre]

Since VM told me they don't have any SH2AC's left I've bitten the bullet and ordered a NOW TV VDSL broadband on a rolling 30 day contract.  I for the 40/10 package as my line won't support too much higher.  I currently have both running but the NTV is the main broadband (VM connection is in router mode).  It's going to be a bit hard going from 200/20 to 37/9 but my latency has much improved as you can see below and my gaming has also improved (apart from my bad aiming and slow reactions).  Just going to have some patience with the huge XBX downloads.

I will keep reading this thread to keep up to date with the info and leave both connections running for a month then cancel my full VM package and see what the future holds.

PING 88.80.191.58 (88.80.191.58): 56 data bytes

64 bytes from 88.80.191.58: icmp_seq=0 ttl=59 time=11.150 ms

64 bytes from 88.80.191.58: icmp_seq=1 ttl=59 time=10.933 ms

64 bytes from 88.80.191.58: icmp_seq=2 ttl=59 time=11.903 ms

64 bytes from 88.80.191.58: icmp_seq=3 ttl=59 time=11.445 ms

64 bytes from 88.80.191.58: icmp_seq=4 ttl=59 time=11.512 ms

--- 88.80.191.58 ping statistics ---

5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0.0% packet loss

round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 10.933/11.389/11.903/0.331 ms

[WildWayz]

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@Nejones1981 wrote:

Hi guys does anyone know if the hub 2 ac runs well on the gamer 200 package ? I sure I read somewhere that it doesn't but I can't find the post anymore.

cheers 

---

It is perfect for the SH2AC - it is only the Vivid 300/350 that it won't work with

[Grumpy101]

Mods, can we have this thread sticked at the top of the forum please.

[CullenSkink]

Hi,

I feel like I've emerged into daylight. Thanks for continuing to post all this information on the forum. I should have done some research here long ago.

I joined Virginmedia in May 2015, signing up to a up to 30Mb/s Broadband/home phone package and received the 1st gen Superhub. Broadband was working well but the phone line was very crackly. I persisted with this for 6-months, thinking it to be a home-connection issue and then called to complain. VM sent an engineer round who confirmed water in the street line and started a new phone line would need to be run from the street cabinet and reconnected. VM sent a "pre-pull" team around a couple of weeks before re-connection and one of them put a spade through my existing broadband fibre cable so we were without broadband until the date of the connection.

In late 2016 I started to experience intermittent wifi issues from the ageing SH1 box and after some perseverance, troubleshooting, VM engineer visits and many calls it was agreed they'd send me a replacement router at no charge - this was the lovely new H3. At that time I could have requested a SH2ac but the H3 was deemed to be more future-proof, arrived earlier this year and was installed by the VM engineer. Since then the wifi connection in the house has been much better but around 4 months ago my son and I found latency and packet loss issues began to cause in-game freezes that made our favourite online games unplayable. These are games that we'd been playing quite happily on the SH1 with a 30Mb/s connection and subsequent free upgrades to 40Mb/s (pre-H3), 75Mb/s & 100Mb/s (post-H3) speed capacities have no effect upon playability. Since then, I've been in touch with VM support a number of times to have the connection tested and another VM engineer visit but all anyone talks about is wifi connection (irrelevant; gaming PC is connected to H3 by ethernet), line speed (irrelevant; games worked fine on original 30Mb/s package) and number of router device connections (rarely in simutaneous use but disconnecting has no effect on latency and packet loss monitors).

I can see now that I've been stuck in a customer support loop that has been a complete waste of my time. The support service I'm contacting is set up to deal with line connection faults and has been trying to diagnose and resolve the issue in these terms because they either don't understand or are not permitted to acknowledge that the issue is inside the Puma 6 chip at the heart of every H3 router.

I'm no longer a loyal VM customer, I'm an angry customer for the following reasons:

- During all the times I've had problems with VM equipment & service I've been charged the full rate for services that fall short of what's agreed in our contract

- No troubleshooting actions or solutions are offered unless I push very hard for them

- resolving these issues has an impact on my time (work days, evenings, weekends) that I'm not compensated for

- Troubleshooting always seems to start from square 1 - read the damn notes!

- The call-centre staff repeatedly attempt to propose paid upgrades as a solution which makes me furious! I'm trying to get VM to deliver the service I'm already paying for, why would I want to pay more for something else that isn't guaranteed to work?

- Why would VM management waste my time with all of these futile activities when they must know (as it's all over their own forums and the tech press in the US & Europe) that the root cause is the H3?

- Why not treat me as a valued customer, level with me by explaining the issue, what they're going to do about it, with an estimate of how long this will take, regular reports on progress and offer a compensatory discount as recognition for my patience and loyalty?

After reading the posts on this VM-managed forum I'm really disappointed at the silence from VM management. This feels like contempt for customers and there is no end in sight. I have begun to research alternative ISPs who offer slower speeds but use Broadcom chips in their hardware.

[CullenSkink]

N.B. I don't actually want a cheaper service, I want the service I pay for to work properly but I don't see why I should fully comply with my side of the contract terms (i.e. pay full price) if VM is intentionally not complying with theirs.

[Grumpy101]

@CullenSkink

I'm also on the upgraded 100Mbps service (gaming mainly) as well and have been a customer for 17 years. My SH1 failed around June I was "upgraded" to the Hub3 and the problems started exactly as you describe, latency, total drop outs etc. Luckily after fighting with customer service for about three months I managed to get a SH2AC delivered. Latency was massively redcued and more importantly, no more drop outs. A few more learned bodies than myself did state that dropouts were not related to the Hub3 but they have disappeared since using the 2AC. So draw your own conclusions. BQM graphs were chalk and cheese between the two.

You will not receive any formal acknowledgement of the issue from VM and if anyone from VM responds here you will get some glib reply that your SNR looks fine and all is well with the world. The only way through this is to demand to speak to the broadband specialist and request a 2AC. I was on the phone nearly every night for months to get this to happen btw. If you speak to ordinary customer service most will deny there is an issue or feign ignorance. If you ask the a customer service rep to send you a 2AC you will get a Hub3 delivered. It happened to me. Basically the broadband specialist(s) has to pull an old 2AC from their cupboard and send it off to you. The caveat to this is 2AC are becoming a rare or perhaps even extinct commodity.

I am currently also looking at alternative providers for the simple reason that if my 2AC fails I will be back in the mire. There is talk of a Hub4 but when is the question and more improtantly what chipset will it contain.

Hope you get sorted