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louis-m
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Message 71 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning

Ummm... that's interesting. I'll wait with anticipation.

Yes, a gigabit DIA cost would surprise most. I design/configure them where I work and a PtP 1G bearer running at 200mb is £4k a year and that's fairly cheap. Ramping it up to 1G does increase the cost a fair bit.

Ethernet 100mb bearer running at 10mb costs about £200 a month so it's a bit of a difference compared to VMB's Voom & residential connections.

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Charbax
On our wavelength
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Message 72 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning

Gigabit and much faster upload speeds in the UK with VM would be very welcomed. With Brexit looming and lack of VM coverage I had to get to Copenhagen to have 1000/500mbit over yousee copper with docsis 3.1 for £66/month. Fast upload is crucial for my work. In Copenhagen I can have 25x faster upload speed than a London VirginMedia maxxed out.

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Andruser
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Message 73 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning

I know that various outfits offer Gigabit speeds at the moment in the UK, but anecdotally it seems that they don't have the backhaul bandwidth to support the downstream capacity at peak times, and that's exactly what I'd expect to be the case commercially.  No ISP who wants to stay in business is going to buy a full gigabit of backhaul capacity for each gigabit contract they sign (any more than VM have 350 Mbps of dedicated backhaul for each 350 contract).  It all relies on the contention ratio, and fingers-crossed hope that demand won't swamp the available bandwidth.

As and when we see VM gigabit contracts, I'll be very surprised if they can maintain those speeds at peak times.

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happywithmy350
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Message 74 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning


@Adduxi wrote:

@CarlTSpeak wrote:

As an aside I read US forums where a fair few people 'lust' after European broadband. I suspect they won't be so interested in our cable broadband. In the US dealing with the three largest:

Cox Communications: 9.1 million homes passed, 90%+ gigabit availability

Charter Spectrum: ~50 million homes passed, 80%+ gigabit availability

Comcast: 58 million homes passed, almost 100% gigabit availability

Virgin Media: 15.2+ million homes passed, zero gigabit availability


I guess until VM get some serious competition, they won't bother with gigabit.  They just want to stay a little bit ahead of BT


They are already behind on the upload - which is what I will be switching to once g.fast arrives - I sit on the cab so will get full whack. 50 is better than 19 sorry VM

 

Ain't all about the download brothers.

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happywithmy350
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Message 75 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning


@CarlTSpeak wrote:

Hope everyone is well and having a fantastic holiday season.

Keep an eye on the news, etc, over calendar Q1 of 2019. Should be interesting for the more bandwidth obsessed among us Smiley Wink


You the man - Will keep an eye out thanks 🙂

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happywithmy350
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Message 76 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning


@louis-m wrote:

Ummm... that's interesting. I'll wait with anticipation.

Yes, a gigabit DIA cost would surprise most. I design/configure them where I work and a PtP 1G bearer running at 200mb is £4k a year and that's fairly cheap. Ramping it up to 1G does increase the cost a fair bit.

Ethernet 100mb bearer running at 10mb costs about £200 a month so it's a bit of a difference compared to VMB's Voom & residential connections.


just over £8600 a month for 10G - if you use BT - Cable no idea. 

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happywithmy350
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Message 77 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning


@cje85 wrote:

@happywithmy350 wrote:

Cheers for the resurrection/update and I do see your point regarding BT - They could have gone ahead but they even failed to do that. It's about time VM just obliterated them and took the crown once and for all.


I would pay for more speed and this 1000/50 you speak of - however my area is still locked at 24 downstream and 4 up - it runs flawlessly so I am not complaining - but sounds like we are still waiting to be done. 

The Hub 3 only supports 24 downstreams so that's the most you'll see even if your area has 32 downstreams.

The extra channels are there to provide extra capacity/load balancing, eg. some  users in an area may be on channels 1-24 and others on 8-32.


Cheers for the reply - I am on business also - and because of this I can see 32 channels in the Hilton router - so I hope whatever they do for res this year they do for business also - or sooner for business. 

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CarlTSpeak
Wise owl
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Message 78 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning

Delivery of 1Gb is, as it stands, scheduled to require a DOCSIS 3.1 modem. These bond 32 legacy channels and two OFDM channels on the downstream along with 8 legacy and two OFDM channels on the upstream.

I saw mention of Yousee and they / TDC are very clear about how their network is arranged. They are about as opposite from VM as you could wish with their openness relative to VM behaving like they've some secret sauce when, in fact, they do nothing as far as DOCSIS goes that's exotic or state of the art, they play it very safe and are a really long way from the bleeding edge.

TDC have about 356 MHz of DOCSIS 3.1 downstream capacity and about 199 MHz of DOCSIS 3.1 upstream capacity, 63 MHz maximum of which is shared with 3.0 - providing very approximately 3.9 Gb/s downstream and 1.6 Gb/s upstream. They also have about 1.2 Gb/s of 3.0 downstream available - 24 channels - that can bond with the 3.1, so selling 1Gb/s downstream and 500Mb/s upstream is actually pretty safe - less than 20% of available downstream and less than a third of available upstream per device. For context, VM in some areas sell about 25% of available downstream and a bit over 25% of available upstream to a single device.

Will VM offer a package like this in 2019? No, absolutely not. They'll have at most 80 MHz of 3.1 upstream available, more commonly 60 MHz, 38.4 MHz of which has to be shared with the 3.0 channels, and no more than perhaps a third of the downstream TDC are putting in place. Chances are, going by the experiences of other members of the Liberty Global family, they won't even use 3.1 upstream.

Enough to sell a gigabit to some punters but it won't be mass market and won't be good for more than 50-100Mb upstream, likely towards the lower end of the range.

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CarlTSpeak
Wise owl
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Message 79 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning


@Andruser wrote:

I know that various outfits offer Gigabit speeds at the moment in the UK, but anecdotally it seems that they don't have the backhaul bandwidth to support the downstream capacity at peak times, and that's exactly what I'd expect to be the case commercially.  No ISP who wants to stay in business is going to buy a full gigabit of backhaul capacity for each gigabit contract they sign (any more than VM have 350 Mbps of dedicated backhaul for each 350 contract).  It all relies on the contention ratio, and fingers-crossed hope that demand won't swamp the available bandwidth.

As and when we see VM gigabit contracts, I'll be very surprised if they can maintain those speeds at peak times.


To be honest the main ones having these issues are Vodafone, and they have issues handling 80Mb punters let alone 1Gb. Everyone else seems to be doing okay and managing 900Mb/s+ as an average.

VM don't have to worry too much as 1Gb will be a vanity tier with relatively few subscribers so there won't be a massive drain on capacity.

Well, I say this, it depends on whether or not the 'retentions' team are allowed to start throwing a gigabit at customers who threaten to move to TalkTalk's 40Mb unless VM offer 25 times as much at the same price to try and keep their numbers up. Those guys have broken areas in the past and, when it is released, if they are permitted to allow people, a couple on here and other forums come to mind immediately, to blag their way onto the tier for free those early adopters who actually pay for the privilege have every right to be very angry indeed.

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Charbax
On our wavelength
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Message 80 of 297
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Re: How soon can we upgrade to Gigabit/Gigabit speeds over DOCSIS 3.1? #Gigaworld #ProjectLightning


@CarlTSpeak wrote:

TDC have about 356 MHz of DOCSIS 3.1 downstream capacity and about 199 MHz of DOCSIS 3.1 upstream capacity, 63 MHz maximum of which is shared with 3.0 - providing very approximately 3.9 Gb/s downstream and 1.6 Gb/s upstream. They also have about 1.2 Gb/s of 3.0 downstream available - 24 channels - that can bond with the 3.1, so selling 1Gb/s downstream and 500Mb/s upstream is actually pretty safe - less than 20% of available downstream and less than a third of available upstream per device. For context, VM in some areas sell about 25% of available downstream and a bit over 25% of available upstream to a single device.


Interesting, what does the 20% and 25% of "capacity per device" mean, is it shared with neighborhood users that connect to the same neighborhood relay box or how it's called? Too bad for VM users if they won't be getting 1000mbit/s down and 500mbit/s up, I am using it right now here in Copenhagen, so perhaps I won't be spending much time in London for now, I need the bandwidth! Haha.

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