IPv6 support on Virgin media

[dgcarter]

Does anyone know whether (and if so when) Virgin plan to implement IPv6 on its network?

[Morgaine]

@ravenstar68 wrote:

The only people who won't be affected are those who simply browse and stream from the web.

Although what you wrote isn't incorrect, by focusing on IPv4 alone your analysis ignored the primary benefits of the new deployment and so it didn't give a balanced picture.  A balanced summary would look more like this:

The people who will benefit greatly are:

* Those who use primarily IPv6, who will enjoy a more capable and slightly faster network.
* Those who use advanced networking features or run servers, for which IPv6 is superior.
* Those who use IPv4 only to browse or stream from the web (Virgin's main customer base).

The people who will be affected adversely are:

* Those who keep IPv6 enabled but still wish to use IPv4 features like port forwarding.

The people who will neither benefit nor be affected adversely are:

* Those who disable IPv6 provisioning and hence revert their Virgin links to IPv4-only.

That description is more complete and balanced, and as a result, the picture is also a far more pleasant one.  It's not a perfect situation of course, but it's better overall than what we currently have.

Morgaine.

[VMCopperUser]

---

@Morgaine wrote:

@ravenstar68 wrote:

The only people who won't be affected are those who simply browse and stream from the web.

Although what you wrote isn't incorrect, by focusing on IPv4 alone your analysis ignored the primary benefits of the new deployment and so it didn't give a balanced picture.  A balanced summary would look more like this:

The people who will benefit greatly are:

* Those who use primarily IPv6, who will enjoy a more capable and slightly faster network.
* Those who use advanced networking features or run servers, for which IPv6 is superior.
* Those who use IPv4 only to browse or stream from the web (Virgin's main customer base).

The people who will be affected adversely are:

* Those who keep IPv6 enabled but still wish to use IPv4 features like port forwarding.

The people who will neither benefit nor be affected adversely are:

* Those who disable IPv6 provisioning and hence revert their Virgin links to IPv4-only.

That description is more complete and balanced, and as a result, the picture is also a far more pleasant one.  It's not a perfect situation of course, but it's better overall than what we currently have.

Morgaine.

---

That description is not complete because it ignores the fact that other ISP's out there have yet to Migrate to any form of IPv6.  And people who Disable IPv6 would find that some things fail (Ravenstars Post).  Your argument would be true IF the whole internet (Other than Virgin) was IPv6.  Of course, Knowing how this cable company has been ran over the years then you might be correct, If it takes them 3-4 more years to roll out IPv6 then CGNAT IPv4 will not be an issue.

*Edit, and why has my Flashlight shining on a F-Type connector gone.... I liked my Fibre Optic Cable Picture....

[Anonymous]

Changing the topic quickly before this gets any more fractious...

Not being a gamer myself I've always wondered what sort of IPv6 support exists for Playstations and Xboxes. From a bit of research it seems to be pretty good for both platforms. It seems to be preferred on the Xbox One: https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/networking/ipv6-on-xbox-one

Anyone use either of these platforms on an IPv6 connection (e.g. Hurricane Electric tunnel or BT/Sky connection) care to comment?

Another discovery on the general IPv6 deployment front I noticed today that O2 have steadily increasing IPv6 numbers. Having been stuck at 0.4% for months it's started to tick up to 0.59% over the past week or so. Seems like another deployment heading towards production status.

[Morgaine]

@VMCopperUser wrote:

And people who Disable IPv6 would find that some things fail (Ravenstars Post).

ravenstar68 wrote no such thing.  He was describing exclusively the problems that would exist with IPv4 when IPv6 provisioning is still enabled.  Indeed, he even stated directly that the problems he outlined would force troubled IPv4 users to "beg to go back to IPv4 or leave", implying that IPv6 is still on.

We have no indication at all that disabling IPv6 provisioning will result in an IPv4 service that is any different to the current one.  I wonder if the trialists' NDA would allow such information to be discussed publicly anyway, even if such problems were indeed present.  They don't appear to be present though, judging by the support posts we see in the VM Ireland community.

Morgaine.

[ravenstar68]

@Morgaine

Yes but you forget to factor in certain realities.

While virtually all the major operating systems are IPv6 enabled, when it comes to other hardware AND software, the reality is vastly different.

Very few games and hardware support IPv6 - DID you know,

1. The Playstation 4 is IPv4 only
2. The XBox one and XBox app on PC both complain if they are on an IPv6 only connection - because Teredo doesn't work.
3. Most home camera solutions and other hardware are still IPv4 only.

So while I for one don't disagree with your comments on IPv6 - the fact is that IPv4 will STILL play a big part in the internet for years to come and MUST be considered carefully.

Tim

[Anonymous]

1. The Playstation 4 is IPv4 only

Do you have a reference for this? People seem to be using IPv6 on their PS4 ( https://toreanderson.github.io/2016/06/15/ipv6-support-in-the-playstation-4.html )

1. The XBox one and XBox app on PC both complain if they are on an IPv6 only connection - because Teredo doesn't work.

I don't think that Teredo is the reason for that behaviour. Microsoft recommends IPv6 networks for the Xbox One (see https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/networking/ipv6-on-xbox-one that I posted earlier).

[ravenstar68]

@Anonymous

The PS4 definitely DOES NOT support IPv6 as of yet.

If we look on the Playstation Forums

https://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/PS4-Support/Incompatibility-with-IPV6/td-p/25501083

I don't have a PS4 or XBox one but I have seen the behaviour of the XBox App on Windows when I had my 6in4 tunnel up, and there are also reports of similar behaviour on the XBox one on other Cable Forums where dual stack lite has been deployed in the past.

I haven't run with my tunnelbroker tunnel in a while as I use Netflix, which treats such tunnels as proxies or VPN's and blocks the connection 😞  Also I used to terminate the connection on a Windows 10 desktop, and Microsoft have borked that interface again with the last major update :(.

Apple TV's, Google Chromecast and Amazon's Echo range all support IPv6 out of the box.  My Bush TV however is IPv4 only.

When I had my tunnel up I did play around with Plex Media Server on my PC with IPv6 support enabled.  That was an interesting experience.

Tim

[ravenstar68]

@Anonymous

Our posts crossed.  That Sony finally appear to have included IPv6 code in the PS4 is heartening.  But the reality is - it's usage still depends on the game creators.  If they don't provide IP version  independent networking code, then gamers are still going to have issue even if the OS is now IPv6 enabled.

I turned off Teredo and IPv4 on my laptop so as far as it knew it only had an IPv6 address with the gateway being my tunnelled PC - so I can confirm the behaviour of the XBox one App - even in a native IPv6 network - it still expects to find a Teredo address.

Tim

[Morgaine]

@ravenstar68:

I agree entirely with your 3 points, but users who suffer from them would elect to disable IPv6 provisioning, and their problems would then vanish.  They would then regain all the functionality of the current IPv4 service, such as port forwarding and full gaming compatibility for example.

As I wrote earlier, the situation is not perfect --- users will have to choose the category into which they fit best.  That choice results in a trade-off or compromise, but at least they have a choice even if it doesn't give them everything.  Over time things can be expected to get better, and eventually they'll be able to enable IPv6 provisioning again.

I'm not in any way a fan of DS-Lite, but I'm fully aware that Dual Stack has no long-term future because it's tied to IPv4, whereas DS-Lite can work even far into the future when ISPs have mostly switched to IPv6-only infrastructure.  Even when one hates DS-Lite with a passion, this long-term advantage can't be brushed under the carpet, so this whole issue is just a matter of timing.

I have explained in detail numerous times how I would organize the transition initially via Dual Stack to give customers fewer transition headaches, to reduce Virgin support costs which are going to skyrocket under a big bang DS-Lite deployment, and to give VM engineers a few more years in which to hone a less horrible DS-Lite implementation or perhaps some other IPv4-over-IPv6 solution with better properties.  Alas it seems that Virgin (or more likely their Liberty Global masters) have decided to do a big bang DS-Lite deployment, if the rumours are true,  Faced with this situation and no ability to affect it (we've been trying for nearly a decade and have been completely ignored), I do at least try to see whether there is anything constructive to say about it,

And indeed there is, because of the choice that Virgin has provided of being able to turn off IPv6 provisioning and revert to native IPv4.  Given that choice, it's fairly clear that this deployment provides far more benefits than we have currently, since by turning off IPv6 provisioning it provides what we have right now and therefore cannot provide less functionality than we have at present.  While that falls far short of fantastic, it does at least imply that things are improving overall.  And of course for those who can make good use of IPv6 and are pushing IPv4 into their past, it's a good step forwards.

Yes, I am fully aware of the many downsides of this deployment for those who want full flexibility on both IPv4 and IPv6.  But do those who insist on having both have a way of bringing that into reality without delaying IPv6 even more years?  If there is no way of affecting the outcome then the complaints are effectively just frustration bubbling to the surface.  I wish it were otherwise.

Morgaine.

[Morgaine]

Sunday update --- and at last something a bit different! 🙂

We're still bumping along the bottom in terms of overall population, but at least this past fortnight has featured a very discernible rising blip in IPv6 counts that stands out from background noise.  Is this the real customer trial?  Who knows, but it seems a possible theory.  Today's count is 1,824.

It's September, so I think we can safely say that any prospect of mid-year IPv6 has ended and Q3 seems unlikely.  But we're used to this, aren't we.

Morgaine.