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Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

Datalink
Up to speed

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.


The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...


Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...


Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...


That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.


Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.


Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 

 

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

4,478 REPLIES 4,478

wotusaw
Superfast

I would eat my bobble hat for a graph such as that!Smiley Winkhub 3 test 121117 1234.jpg

I was thinking the same just then 🙂 Mine looks like yours @wotusaw


@Stoddy27 wrote:

Whilst this is true virgin could eliminate all these issues and allow customers who care about networking equipment to attach their own modems to the line. There is no reason not too most of the other comparable tech companies do this. They could still supply the SH3 to customers and then it is their choice if this is changed or kept. 

 

 


I wish we could use out own modems but I doubt Virgin will ever allow it.

My BQM looks a tiny bit better but I am not on the trial firmware so not sure what has changed.

Andrew-G
Alessandro Volta

@ cje85

"I totally understand people's frustration, but there's not much Virgin Media alone can do about the Intel Puma issues. They can only put pressure on Arris, who in turn can put pressure on Intel to try and produce a firmware based fix. This has affected cable companies worldwide and other modem manufacturers such as Netgear who seemingly all released modems/routers powered by this chip without noticing the problems. From what experts on other forums have said, a firmware fix will never fully resolve the issue as it's a problem with the Puma chip architecture."

With all due respect, that is nonsense.  Virginmedia are part of Liberty Global, one of the largest cable companies on earth, they have clout, they clearly aren't using it.  Blaming a tier 2 supplier and then going "nothing we can do" is the most spineless, useless tactic.  And in contractual terms, probably dishonest.  They have paid (my) good money to Arris for a product that should work.  Either because VM are not competent, or because Arris are not competent, we (the customer) have been stitched up with a product that doesn't work properly.  Intel's involvement is disgraceful, but Intel are a supplier to Arris, and not my concern - Arris, their lawyers and shareholders can sort that out.  Now, if Virginmedia didn't specify appropriate performance standards in their contract with Arris, then Virginmedia are responsible to us customers, and should sort out the immediate replacement of the crummy, third rate Superhubs.  As per earlier posts, there's suitable non-Intel DOCSIS 3 modems available through retail channels.  If, on the other hand Virginmedia did specify appropriate standards that are not being met, then they should force Arris (if need be through the courts) to replace all the junk Superhub 3s (and possibly earlier models) with Intel free versions that work.

I'M PAYING FOR THIS POOR SERVICE.  VIRGINMEDIA SHOULD MAN UP AND SORT IT OUT PRONTO, but instead, they continue to dish out the appalling Superhub 3, and mumble pathetically about some firmware fix that I really don't believe is going to work.  I feel so sorry for 99% of Virginmedia's hard working employees, having to work for a company as poor as this, some even having to face off to customers for the failings of Virginmedia's technical, procurement and corporate bimblers.

In the final analysis, if this is actually Intel's fault AND legal liability, let Intel Corporation be quickly forced to the negotiating table, to pay for the replacement of every PUMA 6 (possibly earlier) device on the planet.  Intel have current assets of $35 billion, and long term investments of a further $11 billion, they produced a rubbish product, they do have the money to fix it.

spot on!

Just switched back to a new 2AC that I had which never ended up being used, the technical support operator argued that the Superhub 3 doesn't have any latency faults or general faults at all haha!

Now to see how this goes, it's already noticable.

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/4701acb8526698f96cdb0de9fba563b002...

Thinking of switching to Business broadband for working from home after all these latency issues.

I hate virgin media with a passion, absolute dreadful ISP. They just don't give a **bleep**

@ alecgrist

"Now to see how this goes, it's already noticable."

It shouldn't be.  The problems affect Intel Puma 5, 6 and 7 chipsets.  The SH 2ac is by all reports I've seen a Puma 5 device.  Virginmedia have been foisting  garbage on customers since the days before time.

 

 


@WillWilson wrote:
How did you get the trial firmware?

I was just selected from this thread 

The puma 5 is worse than a broadcom modem, but not nearly as bad as the puma 6.