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Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

Datalink
Up to speed

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.


The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...


Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...


Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...


That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.


Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.


Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 

 

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

4,478 REPLIES 4,478

Looking at my BQM graph am I right in thinking this does not appear to be the SH3 and instead is congestion? This happens most nights. I play fighting games which are extremely sensitive to lag any sort of ping spike cause the game to be heavily delayed for a good minute or two (delay based netcode).

 

 

My Broadband Ping - home virgin


@simatron3000wrote:

Looking at my BQM graph am I right in thinking this does not appear to be the SH3 and instead is congestion? This happens most nights. I play fighting games which are extremely sensitive to lag any sort of ping spike cause the game to be heavily delayed for a good minute or two (delay based netcode).

 

 

My Broadband Ping - home virgin

Yeah, you can see it all ramps up at peak times. Good luck with that, not usually quickly fixed.

--------------------------------------------------------
Look behind you, a three-headed monkey

I don't expect it go get fixed tbh. I live on a new estate, virgin is the only fibre option, so will get more and more congested as the estate gets finished. I've ordered an ADSL basic package with Zen to use purely for gaming in the hopes of getting a smooth ping and will retain virgin for the speed.


@simatron3000wrote:
I don't expect it go get fixed tbh. I live on a new estate, virgin is the only fibre option, so will get more and more congested as the estate gets finished. I've ordered an ADSL basic package with Zen to use purely for gaming in the hopes of getting a smooth ping and will retain virgin for the speed.

You have got the correct mindset, I will have been waiting 4 years (yes 4 years not a typo) for my over sold highly utilised area to get the CMTS and other bits upgraded and I am still waiting, luckily enough I have also got 76/20 BT Fibre which is used solely for gaming with the VM connection used only for everything else. My BQM for VM is far far worse than yours however...

But I am still stuck on old firmware Smiley Frustrated

The difference between your two graphs is frankly disgraceful. That they can even call any of their products "gaming" is beyond a joke.

I got the new 3.0 hub recently and I am not impressed. I am getting lag spikes in games, Netflix keeps stalling, and even though I set the 5Ghz to manual it keeps changing the channel as though it was set to auto. There is loads of 5Ghz space near me, but every time I check, it has changed my channel to the same as everyone else's:

Does anyone know how to stop it doing this? 

SS.png

The 5G channels from 52 onward use a system called DFS (Dynamic Frequency Selection). This is because in some areas those frequencies are used by radar signals. If something is detected on those channels, the router will immediately switch to a channel between 36-48, even if you have manually specified a different channel.

https://www.tp-link.com/us/faq-763.html

Ditch using the SH as a router, put it in modem mode, and put something decent behind it.

As for the lag spikes, nothing can be done about that until this mythical firmware update comes out ... and then we can see if it's lipstick on a pig, or a proper fix.


@leo32452345wrote:

I got the new 3.0 hub recently and I am not impressed. I am getting lag spikes in games, Netflix keeps stalling, ...


The SH3 Puma 6 issues will have absolutely no effect on Netflix. If you are having issues with Netflix raise it as a separate issue and get an engineer to look at your line. The lag spikes you are seeing in games may be due to SH3, but best to get your line fixed first.

cje85
Trouble shooter

There's a good article on ispreview.co.uk about using your own router, and how under EU law, customers "have the right to use terminal equipment of their choice” (that could possibly include the modem too?)

Obviously we'll be out of the EU this time next year so if ISPs can stall things for long enough it will no longer apply to the UK, but in the meantime Ofcom are investigating the issue. 

Article 3 (1) establishes the rights of end users to access the internet using the “terminal equipment of their choice”. During the first year of operation of the Regulation we identified a practice of concern through our own engagement with ISPs and independent monitoring.

We have opened an initial enquiry into the matter. The purpose of an enquiry is to determine whether there is a case to answer, and if there is, whether it would be consistent with Ofcom’s administrative priorities to carry out a formal investigation. If we decide to investigate, we will, in accordance with our normal process, publish the details on our website.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/04/uk-broadband-isps-stop-locking-users-bundled-router.ht...