on 02-12-2016 05:31
Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,
Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak. Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency. Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users. There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris. I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.
So, the short story ........
The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems. These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem. The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game. The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator. It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume. This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond. For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems. To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved. Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results. Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues. For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem. That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly. This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish. Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects. Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset. Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network. As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not. Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing. I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.
Recent activity:
Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots. This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise. As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others. The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue. That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.
The original thread that xymox1 started is here:
Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:
Today, Arris responded:
That response was also picked by Multichannel.com
http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379
This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.
Hub 3 observations:
Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications. The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task. The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used. Normally, the latency is just that, latency. The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss. The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.
Can this be fixed?
So far, it appears that the answer is yes. Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October. This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency. At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator. That can be seen in the following post:
The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.
At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy. My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss. This is not thru the use of a BQM. I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would. For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.
Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS. This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-
HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem.
Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below. They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes. Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.
http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158
[MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]
on 02-11-2017 18:45
Some people, sure. You can see my post history though 🙂 (from 2013, even!)
02-11-2017 18:49 - edited 02-11-2017 18:52
The merest hint of the suspicion never crossed my mind.
However, who said I was talking about you.
The odd thing is subjectively I agree with you. My gaming seems to be improving after this patch despite the various evidence to the contrary. I mean, not alot but nevertheless an improvement.
03-11-2017 00:08 - edited 03-11-2017 00:15
Just to add to the debate
Ive had virgin replace my router (hub 3 with a hub 3) because i literally went on at them for 3 or 4 phone calls about latency and ping
i suggest anyone who is bothered to get the old Super Hub 2AC and try to get virgin to activate it 😄
IF it has not already been suggested...some 200 pages so i guess it might of. But here u go!
If u would like to find out the problem for yourself and test...
disconnect the internet coax and other ethernet plugs and connect only a laptop and 1 ethernet into the back of the Hub 3
open a terminal (mac) or cmd (pc) and type ping -t 192.168.0.1 (if the router is in router mode)
if the router is in modem mode type... ping -t 192.168.100.1 (i think thats its ip in modem mode)
what will follow is a list of ping times in milliseconds (ms)
you will see and should see a very low MS somewhere in the region of 1-5ms (mind u the hub 2ac has a <1 ms 100% of the time)
but then as it lists these pings it will then spike to 156ms 90ms and then back down to 1 2 1 3 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 and so on and then again 156ms 109ms 50ms
and this is the issue people are trying to solve 😄
Also the ping spikes still happen even in modem mode...as i just tried it with a asus router and the hub 3 in modem mode...and yes i hard reset it after changing to modem mode...
But yes if u then ping 192.168.0.1 (the asus router) u get a <1 ms ping 100%
but if u ping the modem 192.168.100.1 u will see exactly the same ping spike as u did with the hub 3 in router mode 😄
GG GG Virgin and intel lol
But anyway back to my story
i have had now 3 technicians out and they all basically give me a new hub 3 test the line and leave very fast after that stating they can do nothing more. hah 😄 when shown the problem first hand on a laptop they say "well there u go it fixed its self" after it goes nuts 159ms and then back to 1ms or 2ms but then it does it again 160ms and then they say "it could be the ethernet cable" or "have you tried wifi".....good GOD!
i think ill be buying a hub 2Ac and trying my luck on getting virgin to activate it ( OR LEAVE )
This sucks for online gamers....who i guess most people are at some point if they are having this fast broadband installed...
03-11-2017 05:21 - edited 03-11-2017 05:24
Actually there are two issues to contend with:
1. The ping to the modem, which you have described; and
2. The ping to a target beyond the modem.
Those are two separate but possibly related issues. Its possible to resolve the first issue without making any difference to the second issue. In both cases, the latency that you are seeing are hallmarks of a Puma 6 modem. The firmware version that Virgin Media is rolling out should take care of issue 1, and partly of issue 2.
You should see an improvement for ICMP (ping) to and thru the modem, and some limited improvement for UDP (DNS lookups and gaming data transfer) thru the modem. How much of an improvement you will see with UDP has yet to be answered. TCP/IP for data transfer is most likely still problematic with high latency spikes as you have described above.
Fwiw, you don't have to disconnect the coax cable. You can leave it connected and ping the modem. You should see the same result when the coax remains connected to the modem.
on 03-11-2017 06:59
03-11-2017 10:28 - edited 03-11-2017 10:37
beanieboy182@
"Just to add to the debate
Ive had virgin replace my router (hub 3 with a hub 3) because i literally went on at them for 3 or 4 phone calls about latency and ping
i suggest anyone who is bothered to get the old Super Hub 2AC and try to get virgin to activate it
IF it has not already been suggested...some 200 pages so i guess it might of. But here u go!
If u would like to find out the problem for yourself and test...
disconnect the internet coax and other ethernet plugs and connect only a laptop and 1 ethernet into the back of the Hub 3
open a terminal (mac) or cmd (pc) and type ping -t 192.168.0.1 (if the router is in router mode)
if the router is in modem mode type... ping -t 192.168.100.1 (i think thats its ip in modem mode)
what will follow is a list of ping times in milliseconds (ms)
you will see and should see a very low MS somewhere in the region of 1-5ms (mind u the hub 2ac has a <1 ms 100% of the time)
but then as it lists these pings it will then spike to 156ms 90ms and then back down to 1 2 1 3 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 and so on and then again 156ms 109ms 50ms
and this is the issue people are trying to solve
Also the ping spikes still happen even in modem mode...as i just tried it with a asus router and the hub 3 in modem mode...and yes i hard reset it after changing to modem mode...
But yes if u then ping 192.168.0.1 (the asus router) u get a <1 ms ping 100%
but if u ping the modem 192.168.100.1 u will see exactly the same ping spike as u did with the hub 3 in router mode
GG GG Virgin and intel lol
But anyway back to my story
i have had now 3 technicians out and they all basically give me a new hub 3 test the line and leave very fast after that stating they can do nothing more. hah when shown the problem first hand on a laptop they say "well there u go it fixed its self" after it goes nuts 159ms and then back to 1ms or 2ms but then it does it again 160ms and then they say "it could be the ethernet cable" or "have you tried wifi".....good GOD!
i think ill be buying a hub 2Ac and trying my luck on getting virgin to activate it ( OR LEAVE )
This sucks for online gamers....who i guess most people are at some point if they are having this fast broadband installed..."
Thanks for all the information. Had some idea that there were spikes of 250ms every now and then, but you have explained it all wonderfully. I'm newish to this forum and just come on for the info being a dumb*** in the world of router/modems/whateve. The HUB 3 probs brought me here. Very happy you have joined the debate and whinging.
Wow...have to say to anyone trying to fix this.........good luck with that.
Would have gone for the V6 box but this shenanigans with the hellbeast HUB 3 has put that on the back burner for sure. Want to keep my options open as my contract runs out in Feb 2017.
on 03-11-2017 11:33
For awhile I was sure it was a problem but after an update to a game that added network indicators and 1 second ping updates I've noticed it's a lot less world ending then what people make it out to be I wouldn't call a 3ms variance in ping between 15-18ms terrible let alone the fact I'm not seeing any network warnings pop up that would indicate ping problems.
03-11-2017 11:57 - edited 03-11-2017 12:06
@wotusaw wrote:
*snip - wall of text *
i think ill be buying a hub 2Ac and trying my luck on getting virgin to activate it ( OR LEAVE )
This sucks for online gamers....who i guess most people are at some point if they are having this fast broadband installed..."
And this is it, in a nutshell.
Can't fix inept & slow router CPU with firmware update, alas. Single-core 800Mhz ARM for gigabit router is ridiculous (most of such from competition are already quad-core these days) - but I guess its really *cost-effective* (and for "free router provided by ISP" is what that counts most 😉 ).
Amusing that Superhub 2(which had Puma 5) was better performing. I guess original TI legacy, before Intel managed to screw it over (or, more likely, tried to stretch to 32 channels something that was originally designed for 8 tops).
03-11-2017 13:13 - edited 03-11-2017 13:13
Heres one thing about all this...”no one ever got fired for picking Intel”.
on 03-11-2017 13:16