Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

[Datalink]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.

The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...

Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...

Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...

That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.

Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.

Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

[shanematthews]

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@boltedenergy wrote:

This forum thread started on ‎02 December 2016. It has been 298 days or 9 months, 24 days since then.

There's still no sign of a firmware fix to be provided by VM.

Surely 298 days is enough time to arrange new hardware/apply the existing firmware fixes/change policy to allow other modems/anything else

What say you VM - will this be fixed and when exactly?? 

Answers only accepted from people speaking directly on VM's behalf ,so that should exclude a certain someone who comments on everyone's post.

I expect to hear silence if that is the case VM would silently be confirming there is no plan to implement a fix at present and anyone on the Gamer package should be able to get compensation for a reduced service.

p.s. only 173 pages of complaints so far, does it need to hit 200+ before a proper official comment?

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You won't get an official response, i mean you already knew that making this post, you mention allowing other modems, which regardless of the timescale is NOT happening so you're not going to get a response on that, and you're partially right, its likely that work on the hub4 is coming to its end phase, not that you'll get a public answer to that until the device has been tested, although thats assuming the puma7 discovery didn't cause them to have to scrap the version they were working on and start the process from scratch, at which point we might be waiting for a while 😛

[jaywii94]

Wow just signed up to VM as my BT speeds where disgusting, Now having the same issues as all the above, 
If i put my VM hub 3 into modem mode and use my BT router would that fix the issue?
Cant game at all due to huge rubber banding and lag spiking and getting withdrawal symptoms.

Again speaking to VM staff has offered no help quite disgusted and after finding a 173 page forum thread with no response has put me of even more.
If anyone know anything that could slightly help i would appreciate the advice,

Many thanks

[WildWayz]

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@jaywii94 wrote:

Wow just signed up to VM as my BT speeds where disgusting, Now having the same issues as all the above, 
If i put my VM hub 3 into modem mode and use my BT router would that fix the issue?
Cant game at all due to huge rubber banding and lag spiking and getting withdrawal symptoms.

Again speaking to VM staff has offered no help quite disgusted and after finding a 173 page forum thread with no response has put me of even more.
If anyone know anything that could slightly help i would appreciate the advice,

Many thanks

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Unfortunately, putting the SH3 into modem mode etc won't fix it. Only way is to try to get Virgin to drop you to a 200mbit package and send you a SH2AC, which (made up percentage, but based on what people have said) there is a 90% chance that won't happen. 

If you have JUST signed up, cancel your contract within the cooling off period unless they send you an SH2AC 

[Darkman]

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@jaywii94 wrote:

If i put my VM hub 3 into modem mode and use my BT router would that fix the issue?

If anyone know anything that could slightly help i would appreciate the advice

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No. Your options are to get hold of a SuperHub 2ac (read the posts linked below), or cancel your contract and go back to BT, or twiddle your thumbs until VM release the (Super)Hub 4 and hope it doesn't have a Puma 7 chipset in it (or that Intel has learned from the Puma 6 fiasco).

Message 1512

Message 1540

Message 1541

Message 1668

[jaywii94]

Wow that is not the answer i hoped for tbh,
What are my chances of getting the Hub2?
Also how long is a calling of period im only been a VM customer 2 weeks

[JJC1138]

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@jaywii94 wrote:

Also how long is a calling of period im only been a VM customer 2 weeks

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It's 14 days from when the equipment was delivered and the service started so you might just inside if you're lucky.

[FranMa]

I can't believe I am back on this forum, it is my worst nightmare! After being a Virgin Media customer for 8 years I started to experience multiple issues with my connection. After many, many months of complaints and multiple threats opened in this forum, Virgin recognised that there were high utilisation issues and agreed to upgrade the exchange at some point in the following year (this was around 2014), by that time I was near the end of my contract and changed to BT Infinity. Since then I have honestly had 3 years of being the happiest gamer on earth, after a year of  absolute hell with Virgin. I have had no issues whatsoever and cannot praise enough BT Infinity for gaming, it is just absolutely fantastic. Unfortunately, I am moving home and the new house is too far from the cabinet so BT can only offer ADSL, so I have to go back to Virgin, the engineer is coming on Saturday. As a gamer I have bumped into this threat. They are saying that they do not offer the Hub 2AC as they do not have it on stock. Here is my plan and wanted to hear your views: I have bought a second hand Hub 2AC from ebay, so I am going to ask the engineer to use that to setup the connection. If they cannot use a second hand Hub 2AC or provide a new one then I am not sure if cancelling and get ADSL, which I had it with fastpath before and it is better than having spikes and packet loss with Virgin. 

[FranMa]

I can't believe I am back on this forum, it is my worst nightmare! After being a Virgin Media customer for 8 years I started to experience multiple issues with my connection. After many, many months of complaints and multiple threats opened in this forum, Virgin recognised that there were high utilisation issues and agreed to upgrade the exchange at some point in the following year (this was around 2014), by that time I was near the end of my contract and changed to BT Infinity. Since then I have honestly had 3 years of being the happiest gamer on earth, after a year of  absolute hell with Virgin. I have had no issues whatsoever and cannot praise enough BT Infinity for gaming, it is just absolutely fantastic. Unfortunately, I am moving home and the new house is too far from the cabinet so BT can only offer ADSL, so I have to go back to Virgin, the engineer is coming on Saturday. As a gamer I have bumped into this threat. They are saying that they do not offer the Hub 2AC as they do not have it on stock. Here is my plan and wanted to hear your views: I have bought a second hand Hub 2AC from ebay, so I am going to ask the engineer to use that to setup the connection. If they cannot use a second hand Hub 2AC or provide a new one then I am not sure if cancelling and get ADSL, which I had it with fastpath before and it is better than having spikes and packet loss with Virgin. 

[FranMa]

I can't believe I am back on this forum, it is my worst nightmare! After being a Virgin Media customer for 8 years I started to experience multiple issues with my connection. After many, many months of complaints and multiple threats opened in this forum, Virgin recognised that there were high utilisation issues and agreed to upgrade the exchange at some point in the following year (this was around 2014), by that time I was near the end of my contract and changed to BT fibre. Since then I have honestly had 3 years of being the happiest gamer on earth, after a year of  absolute hell with Virgin. I have had no issues whatsoever and cannot praise enough BT fibre for gaming, it is just absolutely fantastic. Unfortunately, I am moving home and the new house is too far from the cabinet so BT can only offer ADSL, so I have to go back to Virgin, the engineer is coming on Saturday. As a gamer I have bumped into this threat. They are saying that they do not offer the Hub 2AC as they do not have it on stock. Here is my plan and wanted to hear your views: I have bought a second hand Hub 2AC, so I am going to ask the engineer to use that to setup the connection. If they cannot use a second hand Hub 2AC or provide a new one then I am not sure if cancelling and get ADSL, which I had it with fastpath before and it is better than having spikes and packet loss with Virgin. 

[shanematthews]

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@FranMa wrote:

I can't believe I am back on this forum, it is my worst nightmare! After being a Virgin Media customer for 8 years I started to experience multiple issues with my connection. After many, many months of complaints and multiple threats opened in this forum, Virgin recognised that there were high utilisation issues and agreed to upgrade the exchange at some point in the following year (this was around 2014), by that time I was near the end of my contract and changed to BT fibre. Since then I have honestly had 3 years of being the happiest gamer on earth, after a year of  absolute hell with Virgin. I have had no issues whatsoever and cannot praise enough BT fibre for gaming, it is just absolutely fantastic. Unfortunately, I am moving home and the new house is too far from the cabinet so BT can only offer ADSL, so I have to go back to Virgin, the engineer is coming on Saturday. As a gamer I have bumped into this threat. They are saying that they do not offer the Hub 2AC as they do not have it on stock. Here is my plan and wanted to hear your views: I have bought a second hand Hub 2AC, so I am going to ask the engineer to use that to setup the connection. If they cannot use a second hand Hub 2AC or provide a new one then I am not sure if cancelling and get ADSL, which I had it with fastpath before and it is better than having spikes and packet loss with Virgin. 

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Its unlikely the engineer will install a hub2 you just happen to have laying around, although you might get lucky, but at that stage i'm not sure what VM's policy is regarding you refusing to let them install the service you ordered from them, also on a random note technically speaking that hub2 you have is stolen property as all the hardware is owned by VM and its not legal to sell something you don't own, although they are unlikely to charge you with anything it might be used as a reason for not installing it