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For all Gamers with lag: Puma chipset and the Virgin media development department.

Laura96
Dialled in

So I have been experiencing so much latency ping and jittering like many of you have and after updating every part of my set up and spending a bunch of money i have narrowed it down to the biggest offender. The Puma 6 chipset inside your Home Hub 3.

If you are a gamer or streamer what matters most is having a consistent smooth FPS experience. Unfortunately for all the pros of Virgin and its wonderful staff it is let down by the Home Hub 3, more specifically the Puma 6 chipset by Intel/Arris who have now made a Puma 7 chipset with similar issues. As a community of Virgin media I think we all - including the staff need to rally together to make this service as good if not better than what is advertised. 

No amount of software patches will fix this hardware problem and putting the HH3 in modem mode doesn't help either. The puma chipset line is poorly made in comparison to what is available on the market. The Virgin media development department with the final say on this has to be woken up in order to realise that people aren't stupid, if they continue with this chipset they will continue to lose customers permanently. 

Solutions;

-Scrap the Puma chipset line altogether in favour of any other better chipset for the Home Hub 4.

- Release a pro version of the Home Hub 3 with a different chipset tailored for gamers. (I would pay extra for that happily)

-Make a list of 3rd party modems which are compatible with Virgin DOCSIS 3 in Europe. Like BT does.

 https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/08/intel-coughs-to-puma-cpu-flaw-that-hit-virgin-media-hu...

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31122204-SB6190-Puma6-TCP-UDP-Network-Latency-Issue-Discussion~sta...

https://www.classactionlawyers.com/puma6

74 REPLIES 74


@CMAC1986 wrote:

So they are gonna leave possibly 100s of thousands of gamers high and dry. Not a nice thing really. Also I dont care who manufacters or creates the chipsets. It is down to Virgin who are buying the hardware to listen to the complaints of their customers instead of having people like yourself shoot people down for being disappointed in a service they dont believe is acceptable.

I am here looking help, if you cant provide that dont make a comment.

It does not meet the standards, there are thousands of topics here, people complaining about the puma chip on the hub 3, it makes gaming unplayable, even on the so called gaming package of 350mb.

For a company that makes 100s of millions from its userbase I think it woiuld be the least they could do and manufacter or buy new hardware that actually works for what I buy the service for, Many many others included would agree.

 


I mean speak for yourself, i'm gaming just fine on a Puma6 device without any noticeable increase in ping over the SH2 i used to have

And you should care who manufactures it because then you'll understand who can actually fix it and why VM doesn't really have any influence over it, at the end of the day latency is not and never has been a selling point of a VM package, so at the end of the day the device is suitable for the claims VM is making and it serves customers just fine, sure you are free to dislike that but expecting VM to listen to the complaints of a minority really isn't going to happen, remember we make up such a small fraction of their customer base that our voices don't matter and never will, if we wanted the lowest possible latency we would be going with a DSL service as those provide lower latency than DOCSIS ever does even under the best conditions

So here is the thing, based on what part of your contract do you feel the service is NOT acceptable? because nothing in your contract ever stated latency, nothing in the marketing ever specified latency, there is a massive difference between your desires and what VM is actually selling you, if low latency had been your primary need then you wouldn't have gone with a VM package based purely on it being a DOCSIS product which as i have stated is already known in advance to provide higher latency than DSL products, something you could have researched ahead of time

And i have provided you with help, i've given you the facts so you can decide what you want to do on a personal level, nothing on here is going to change that DOCSIS connections have higher latency even when working at their best, nothing is going to change that for the overwhelming majority of users the puma6 products are working just fine, as i've already said there is a significant cost involved in having companies bid on a contract to provide new hubs to VM, and at this point there isn't any reason from VM's perspective to even bother with it, even if all the disgruntled gamers were to leave VM it would still cost them less in lost customers than it would to release a new product that most of the consumers literally won't even notice a difference with, sure those facts suck but they are the answer to your question, its not the answer you wanted but it IS the only valid answer

And yes there are numerous complaints here about the puma6 modem, nobody is denying that, but unless latency was ever guaranteed in the marketing or the contract then you really shouldn't have been expecting it, because as i again point out, DOCSIS network will ALWAYS provide a higher latency than DSL connections, so if low latency is key you should NOT be buying a DOCSIS service period, those are the tradeoffs between DSL and DOCSIS, latency vs speed, you pick which is most important and you buy based on that, just because you bought the service for gaming that doens't mean its the best product to achieve that, its like buying a ferrari and then complaining that ferrari should make a car with a bigger boot because you can't fit all your shopping in it

So yeah, you're going to be disappointed because you're not going to get an answer that makes you happy

I will not get into a stupid back and forths with you and I will not reply to all what you have said, because it doesnt solve my problem. I never bought Virgin for gaming, just because I am not happy with the service does not mean it is all gaming related. I have been with Virgin for a very long time, back when NTL and my brother working for both companies,. I bought the service for internet purposes of all things and with that gaming was part of it. It worked bloody fine with the super hub 2ac for a long time. I never had any faults but 2 the whole time I had that hub installed. That is why I am here complaining!. My service worked perfectly and it is obvious you didnt read my post correctly. It was when they changed the hub thats when my problems started.

For the record I don't think you helped anyone, only in your last post did you mention DSL and DOCSIS and I am aware of the differences, that is not a form of help. My service worked fine and now it does not. Thats my reasons for being here.  You may be one of the many lucky ones who don't suffer from those issues but I am not unfortunately.

It is childish like to argue with you about something you yourself have no control over. The only way to get help is to continue contact with Virgin via phone as this forum is clearly lacking support in the area I want help with. So I will leave it there.


@CMAC1986 wrote:

I will not get into a stupid back and forths with you and I will not reply to all what you have said, because it doesnt solve my problem. I never bought Virgin for gaming, just because I am not happy with the service does not mean it is all gaming related. I have been with Virgin for a very long time, back when NTL and my brother working for both companies,. I bought the service for internet purposes of all things and with that gaming was part of it. It worked bloody fine with the super hub 2ac for a long time. I never had any faults but 2 the whole time I had that hub installed. That is why I am here complaining!. My service worked perfectly and it is obvious you didnt read my post correctly. It was when they changed the hub thats when my problems started.

For the record I don't think you helped anyone, only in your last post did you mention DSL and DOCSIS and I am aware of the differences, that is not a form of help. My service worked fine and now it does not. Thats my reasons for being here.  You may be one of the many lucky ones who don't suffer from those issues but I am not unfortunately.

It is childish like to argue with you about something you yourself have no control over. The only way to get help is to continue contact with Virgin via phone as this forum is clearly lacking support in the area I want help with. So I will leave it there.


There is a difference between "Does not solve my problem" and "Isn't the answer i wanted to hear", because your problem is only solved by VM changing the hubs to something that doesn't use the puma6 modem, and that isn't going to happen for the reasons i listed above, i mean you don't have to like that answer but that IS the answer, sure it sucks but thats the way business work, they have a contract for the modems and they have to honour it unless Arris are in breach of it, and seeing as latency has never been a selling point i very much doubt its listed in the contract between Arris and VM, so VM don't have a legal way to break the contract and would likely have to suffer an early termination fee should they wish to stop buying them from Arris without a valid reason

You'll get the same answer via phone because the method of communication doesn't change the reason why there is nothing VM are going to do about it, at the very best you'll be offered an early termination without a fee, although you'll be getting that option with the price increase anyway, as i've said, if latency is that important to you then VM is not the ISP for you, when you get your letter about this years price increase tell them you're going to take the option of leaving without the early termination fee and give BT a call and see what they can do, again its not the answer you want but its the only solution that currently exists that will get you a service without a puma6 modem

Its your choice at the end of the day

I've heard all of your excuses and as valid as you think they are. I'm leaving as soon as I can and I won't be back there is more than one solution to this but VM and all of its yes men on here don't even want to give customers a choice, which they could put out a list of compatible modems with Docsis eu LIKE BT DOES. So whatever, keep repeating the same excuses treat us like idiots. I won't be the only one leaving once they've had enough that's for sure. You don't care bout the customer, the customer will give up on you.

im just waiting for that one guy who's payed to repeat the "oh but if you use a 3rd party modem we won't be able to assist you by telling you to turn it on and off again" excuse.

...spare me

There really is just soooo many gamers with the same issue. But the yes men keep repeating the "the new firmware patch fixed it for me line." well thats nice to know now could you leave, so the rest of us can try get our internet fixed for REAL, please and thank you.


@Laura96 wrote:

I've heard all of your excuses and as valid as you think they are. I'm leaving as soon as I can and I won't be back there is more than one solution to this but VM and all of its yes men on here don't even want to give customers a choice, which they could put out a list of compatible modems with Docsis eu LIKE BT DOES. So whatever, keep repeating the same excuses treat us like idiots. I won't be the only one leaving once they've had enough that's for sure. You don't care bout the customer, the customer will give up on you.


You've yet to prove any of them aren't valid, and you can't really compare a DSL network to a cable network in terms of allowed devices, with DSL your device can't affect the network segment you're on, with a cable network a device that isn't up to spec can generate noise on the network which can actually affect other users, and you're welcome to leave if the service they provide doesn't meet your requirements, i've already encouraged Cmac to take that option when his price rise letter arrives

The other issue you're forgetting is that DSL modems use a username/password for connecting to the network, hence why you can use any router you like, VM's network doesn't use logins it uses the MAC addresses of the devices in order to authenticate them, they would have no ability to control what a 3rd party cable modem would try to do, so in terms of securing their network its not in their best interest to allow random devices to access it

And i'm not treating you like idiots, i'm just treating you like people who don't understand the tech side of things and why it isn't as simple as people on here would like to think, asking people to leave the thread won't get anything fixed mainly because there is no fix for it that is financially viable or viable from a security perspective, even if we were to all stop posting it would just be you banging your head against a wall in a thread with no other posts than your own, if you've already accepted that you're going to leave over it then vote with your wallet, not that VM will really notice, and we both know it

cje85
Trouble shooter

@Laura96 wrote:

There really is just soooo many gamers with the same issue. But the yes men keep repeating the "the new firmware patch fixed it for me line." well thats nice to know now could you leave, so the rest of us can try get our internet fixed for REAL, please and thank you.


The new firmware fixed if for pretty much everyone. That's why the whole Puma 6 fiasco barely gets mentioned on this forum anymore. Gamers reported hige improvements as did those who use VoIP like WiFi calling on mobiles.

Latency/jitter is never perfect on cable/DOCSIS connections and is always higher than DSL providers.. but they are working on something for the future https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/06/docsis-3-1-tweak-bringing-ultra-low-latency-to-cable-b...

That last part is actually amazingly good news, it's nice to know at least something is being done in the right direction. I wonder when it will roll out to the public. https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/06/docsis-3-1-tweak-bringing-ultra-low-latency-to-cable-b...

Thank you for that and I wish I was as lucky as you to be able to say oh yh that firmware patch way back when totally fixed my problems but I cant cos im sitting on constant lag spikes up to 200ms and constant disconnects. So I am frustrated that I am paying so much for this service. 

Also to ShaneMathews thank you that explanation cleared up a lot of unanswered questions as to why they cant just bring out a 3rd party list. But i'm still wondering if Virgin media is the only company using DOCSIS 3.0 eu?

and is the SH3 really the only modem compatible. As I have seen there are others compatible with DOCSIS 3.0 using a different chipset and even made by Arris, which leads me to ask why is it that vm cant authenticate the Mac address for such a modem?

lastly you said  "with a cable network a device that isn't up to spec can generate noise on the network which can actually affect other users" if the sh3 itself is not the best modem then wouldn't using a better more up to spec modem improve the system over all?

Broadcom-based Arris SB6183

Intel-based Arris SB6190

Forgive my frustration.  


@Laura96 wrote:

Also to ShaneMathews thank you that explanation cleared up a lot of unanswered questions as to why they cant just bring out a 3rd party list. But i'm still wondering if Virgin media is the only company using DOCSIS 3.0 eu?

and is the SH3 really the only modem compatible. As I have seen there are others compatible with DOCSIS 3.0 using a different chipset and even made by Arris, which leads me to ask why is it that vm cant authenticate the Mac address for such a modem?

lastly you said  "with a cable network a device that isn't up to spec can generate noise on the network which can actually affect other users" if the sh3 itself is not the best modem then wouldn't using a better more up to spec modem improve the system over all?

 

Forgive my frustration.  


I have no idea if VM is the only cable provider using DOCSIS 3, a lot of the choices made are due to the age of the network, some things can't be changed this far in to the game, its the same reason they can't update the password requirements for accounts because some legacy systems can only support passwords of a maximum length and replacing those systems would cost more than VM is willing to spend and result in downtime customers wouldn't be willing to accept

Noise on the network is caused by devices that are either not working correctly or by improperly terminated connections or devices that are doing things the network isn't expecting, the SH3 doesn't generally generate any noise unless its physically faulty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio might clear things up with regards to noise, its called noise but its more a case of interference, a good analogy would be older FM radios where you would hear static or other signals if the radio wasn't tuned perfectly

On its own in a vacuum that small bit of static might not seem like much but now imagine a 2 way radio where you're also transmitting a little extra bit of static back and every other radio is doing the same, eventually you end up with a massive amount of static and you're no longer able to hear the original radio broadcast, in this case the network would be swamped with noise rendering connections unstable and negatively affecting everyone on that network segment, as it stands right now VM can generally eliminate the hubs as a source of noise when they are working correctly, when you start adding in 3rd party hubs that are operating at a slightly different specification the troubleshooting process starts to become a lot more complicated and harder to pinpoint, worst part is that the person with the out of spec modem might not even notice an issue as the device may be built to filter out a certain amount of extra noise caused by modems of the same type while the hubs are only designed to deal with other hubs etc