on 05-01-2017 11:54
Please could someone tell me if the Video Output Settings have been corrected in the V6. i.e. Do they now work like they are described in the info screen or are they like the TiVo but with extra 2160 settings?
on 07-03-2018 20:35
@crypticcwrote:There's also the problem that Virgin compression is antiquated so even though bitrate on Virgin is higher than sky and terrestrial, once compression is taken into account the uncompressed stream is much much lower bitrate. They were supposed to fix that but can't because old telwest ntl boxes won't work. Maybe that's why they're giving away TiVos now?
The original V+, the Scientific-Atlanta 8300DVB (I had one of them), had dual MPEG-2 decoders. All subsequent boxes, including the later V+ made by Samsung, have supported MPEG-4. So, a good way to replace the 8300DVBs is to give away TiVos and V6s.
on 07-03-2018 22:19
@crypticcwrote:
@deans6571wrote:
@crypticcwrote:It's not that once your see it "clean" it's difficult to unsee it when it's less good. Also LCD tend to blur the boundaries between pixel off and pixel on which hides the issue somewhat. There's a great 24p Vs 60p balls video. Try that
You should see smooth 60p ball and then when the 24p over 60 ball appears, the original 60p ball should start juddering when the TV locks into the second 24 over 60 ball. If you see no change in the 60p ball then it means the TV is sticking with 60p for both and the 24p ball will look worse than it should be. 24p still has some judder but it's an even judder whereas 24 over 60 appears almost to be rocking unless TV can decide
Check your YouTube stars to make sure you're getting 60p signal. In have to go to my shield to get this playing in 60p. The LG tried to play it on 30p which is just horrible for both balls.
...wow - will definitely test this tonight on my TV!
Running it on my PC monitor here, the bottom ball (24FPS) is quite juddery from the start, however, when the top ball appears (60FPS), the bottom ball appears to judder even more!! The top ball is very smooth though - no judder at all.
Will be interesting to see how it displays on my TV.
The 24,FPS judder you see maybe because your of card is outputting 60fps and most monitors don't have a real cinema/movie mode.
Should be normal gentle 24fps judder like a cinema. (If your TV supports it)
When the 60fps ball appears the TV should lock into that and it'll be nice and smooth. But all hell will break loose on the 24fps ball as the TV will lose the lock on the 24fps signal. If TV never locked into the 24fs ball in the first place it won't change (according to rtings that is what you'll see, if 24p ball is less juddery before the 60p ball appears it implies TV is doing at least basic 24p over 60)
You MUST have motion interpolation/true motion disabled and any cinema mode enabled. Motion processing is likely to get completely flummoxed by this test especially when each ball changes direction and even worse when both are displayed. Apparently even Sony (considered best for motion) ends up same confusion as my LG on this test if motion is enabled.
Ok, just tried this on the YouTube app on my V6.
The bottom 24fps ball is VERY juddery right from the start. When the top 60fps ball starts, this is also a little juddery but not as much, however, the bottom ball then becomes even more juddery.
Now, trying this on the in built YouTube app on my TV (so bypassing the V6 altogether) produces different and better results. The bottom 24fps ball is still VERY juddery, however, the top 60fps ball is silky smooth throughout the whole video. The bottom ball remains VERY juddery throughout.
This must show that the V6 is actually worse at processing moving images than the native TV!
07-03-2018 23:46 - edited 07-03-2018 23:49
I'd imagine the TiVo YouTube is trying to play it at 50fps which is that bug and why even the 60fps ball looks bad and the 24fps is even worse (film started at 24 fps, was put into 60fps YouTube, and then the TiVo hacked it into 50fps probably dropping some frames along the way. Same for the 60fps ball. No way even the best TV can recover a smooth picture from that, either the 24 over 60, or the native 60. If the TV passed through 60fps your tv would've displayed that fine and would've made a stab at extracting the 24fps film frames from the 60fps signal, as long as the 60fps ball wasn't on the screen anyway)
If you want to test the best your TV hdmi input you need to try another off board device like a shield, Chromecast or Apple TV. This will then reveal the capability of your tv and assuming it treats 50 and 60 equally well, the best exposure of which TV options will work best for any hdmi input, including TiVo Netflix and iplayer.
on 07-03-2018 23:58
on 08-03-2018 09:05
@crypticcwrote:I'd imagine the TiVo YouTube is trying to play it at 50fps which is that bug and why even the 60fps ball looks bad and the 24fps is even worse (film started at 24 fps, was put into 60fps YouTube, and then the TiVo hacked it into 50fps probably dropping some frames along the way. Same for the 60fps ball. No way even the best TV can recover a smooth picture from that, either the 24 over 60, or the native 60. If the TV passed through 60fps your tv would've displayed that fine and would've made a stab at extracting the 24fps film frames from the 60fps signal, as long as the 60fps ball wasn't on the screen anyway)
If you want to test the best your TV hdmi input you need to try another off board device like a shield, Chromecast or Apple TV. This will then reveal the capability of your tv and assuming it treats 50 and 60 equally well, the best exposure of which TV options will work best for any hdmi input, including TiVo Netflix and iplayer.
...I have an Xbox One connected to a different HDMI source so may try the same test on its YouTube app to see if I get similar results.
08-03-2018 22:38 - edited 08-03-2018 22:40
@deans6571wrote:
@crypticcwrote:I'd imagine the TiVo YouTube is trying to play it at 50fps which is that bug and why even the 60fps ball looks bad and the 24fps is even worse (film started at 24 fps, was put into 60fps YouTube, and then the TiVo hacked it into 50fps probably dropping some frames along the way. Same for the 60fps ball. No way even the best TV can recover a smooth picture from that, either the 24 over 60, or the native 60. If the TV passed through 60fps your tv would've displayed that fine and would've made a stab at extracting the 24fps film frames from the 60fps signal, as long as the 60fps ball wasn't on the screen anyway)
If you want to test the best your TV hdmi input you need to try another off board device like a shield, Chromecast or Apple TV. This will then reveal the capability of your tv and assuming it treats 50 and 60 equally well, the best exposure of which TV options will work best for any hdmi input, including TiVo Netflix and iplayer.
...I have an Xbox One connected to a different HDMI source so may try the same test on its YouTube app to see if I get similar results.
Ok, so have just run this same test on my Xbox One and the results are identical to the native TV in built YouTube app: The bottom 24fps ball is still VERY juddery, however, the top 60fps ball is silky smooth throughout the whole video. The bottom ball remains VERY juddery throughout but more so when the top 60fps ball appears.
Basically, the V6 is coming last in all the tests, which isn’t unexpected really......
13-03-2018 09:44 - edited 13-03-2018 09:58
@BennyHwrote:Ill try just 720p and see how ir goes but not really happy about it and will probably go down the sky q route when my contract ends.
On my TV at least, there is absolutely zero differences in picture quality, even when selecting the 720p so you may not see a difference either.
13-03-2018 09:53 - edited 13-03-2018 09:54
Does anyone know why 576i is not selectable as an option for SD content by the way? I get all the upscaled options (720p right up to 2160p) but can't select to pass-through regular PAL material to allow the TV to do the whole de-interlace and upscale process in one go. I know this thread says it doesn't always work, but I thought you could still select it if you wanted just that mode.
Andre
on 13-03-2018 15:58
@deans6571wrote:
@crypticcwrote:
wrote:
@valleyboy22wrote:What is your sd channels like, because mine are terrible on the 2160 settings but my hdr is on so might turn if off to see if makes a difference?
...I don't think its the fault of the V6 that SD channels look terrible.
If you read through some posts on AV Forums, primarily this one: https://www.avforums.com/threads/my-best-value-tvs-2017-edition.2120104/ , you will note that its a given that SD channels generally look terrible on any large 4K TV. It's not the fault of the V6.....
Hi Dean
For me at least this is not true. The SD channels are heavily compressed, yes, but for example SD Blu-ray and terrestrial looks fine. So the fault is definitely Virgin. Also for me at least there's definitely a difference between TiVo scaling 576i to 1080i or even 2160p and the superior processing in the telly
But If I pick 576i to allow my TV to get the native signal is ignored. That is a bug. Fact.
If I pick 1080i to get HD natively then SD needs to be scaled twice, which is bad and easily notifiable that is a fact. I accept you may not notice it
The problem with SD is less noticeable if I pick a solitary 2160p but that brings other (different) issues that from your TV I now understand why you're not affected. See below for that problem. Cheers
@deans6571wrote:Ok, I have just done some further testing on my Samsung 50” MU6120. I am sitting 2-3metres away from the screen and on my TV, selecting the UHD Colour option (so effectively, turning on HDR) makes zero differences to the picture quality when viewing either a SD channel or an HD channel.
Similarly, switching between the 720, 1080i and 2160 options within the V6 Settings screen, again, makes zero differences to the picture quality (whether I have HDR turned on or not) on my TV. In my honest opinion, I think this is becuase, like I said earlier, at this screen size, the differences are minimal at best unless you are sitting literally 1 foot away from the screen and are scrutinising every single straight line and edge on the screen.
I agree difference between static image of HD at 2160p scanned by the TiVo and HD at 1080i scaled by the TV is minimal. That wasn't the issue.
The problem with selecting 2160p to workaround the SD 576i issue is that resolution becomes broken. The problem is that 2160p is 50hz progressive rather than interlaced, which not all TVs can get back to the 24hz film cadence by a prices known as reverse pull-down which ignores the extra repeated frames.
My TV can do that for interlaced 50i and 60i images but cannot do that for 50p or 60p signals. So for me there's a very big difference between 1080i which my TV can get back to 24p by reverse pull-down, and 1080p or 2160p which it cannot.
So for me at least 2160p is not the best it can bev and easily worse than 1080i and it's frustrating that the workaround for the SD bug is to force 2160p which breaks that motion for HD.
I also mentioned why I now understand why you don't see a difference on HD material
Rtings test of your TV confirmed it cannot do 24p or recover 24p from 50i/60i or 50p/60p. That is why you don't see a difference at 2160p because it's equally juddery if you don't mind me saying that. You may even find the motion quality is similar to Blu-ray as every four frames that should be ABCD get played at AABBBCCDDD in order to get to 60hz native refresh of your TV, or maybe sped up a little and then played as AABBBCCDDD which is better but needs a little jump now and again to keep audio in sync.
Kind regards
Chris
P.s. motion processing. (the more detailed review of the TV gives MU6120 same results as the UJ6300 and that is in the comparison table. My TV if lg E6)
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/mu6100
You need to click on both v1.1 and v1.0 results to see both your Samsung
https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p
...great piece of info there and very interesting - appreciated.
Yea, looked at the ratings on rtings and additionally, the 'judder' video here:
If I am completely honest, to my eyes, the judder is extremly minimal and certainly barely noticeable when watching the moving motorcycle in the video above.
I also do not see this judder on my TV (even though Rtings does indeed state it is there) so again, to my eyes, I can't see it when watching normal TV programs or movies (either streamed via an app or recorded on my V6). However, I did indeed spot it when I watched Holby last night - when the program ended and the credits rolled, it was quite noticeable then as the credits scrolled from bottom to top of the screen, but other than that, I am not able to see it.
I guess this affects different people in different ways!
...and just to add - this is a very interesting read, to do with optimum distances to the TV:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-size/size-to-distance-relationship
Additionally, I think one of the many reasons I am not noticing any differences in screen quality between the different options (720, 1080 and 2160) is to do with this section (taken from the above link):
If I sit right up close to the screen (literally within 15cm), these artifacts and compressions are easily noticeable on the screen when viewing any HD content from any channel. They are even noticeable when sitting 3 metres away and if I'm honest, my screen quality is pretty much on par with that screenshot (showing the artifacts) above also.
on 13-03-2018 19:35
So what setting is everyone settling with?
I've stuck mine on 1080i and will use the tv's Netflix and YouTube apps.
It looks like VM can't/won't do anything to fix this so I'll grin and bear it till I can cancel.