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diddley07
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Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

Hello My Two Tivo box's are connected via TP LINK Powerline and are working fine most of the time. The link can be broken for no apparent reason and will mean I have to return to My Shows screen select the show and then fast forward to the point the link was lost. The only message that appears on screen is that the My Home Network is not fast enough and i should try connecting via Ethernet. As i am always connected via ethernet cable to powerline adaptor can anyone help or suggest a cause. Thank you.

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Superuser
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

Experience - an HD recording from a BBC channel usually runs at around 18Mbps (it used to be something you could see in the recording details, can't remember if it's still there now).

As a general rule of thumb, you want to be able to have a connection capable of twice the bandwidth of the content being streamed to allow for noise, fluctuations, etc... which would be 36Mbps, and 50 is a nice round number.

What make/model are the powerline adaptors you're using?

TV: XL+SkySports V6
BB: 200Mbps SuperHub: Arris
Loc: ME10
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andybundy
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

I think we need to take a step-back from discussion of speeds, rings, 'speed-tests' (which are a farce really) and other technical garbage and explore some basic assumptions.

Firstly, you are using the a figure on bandwidth for the box-box streaming requirement based on the (necessarily) average bandwidth required for an HD download of the same content through BBC IPlayer.  That's a good starting point, but one should consider that the amount of data downloaded and thus stored for the show, via cable, on the Tivo could be much higher, as the CODECs, whilst designed around the same foundation, likely a derivative of H264 or similar, are quite likely quite different in multiple respects.

Now while I don't know the answer here, and may start to over-complicate matters, but the packets of data carrying the data travel at layer 4 (TCP/IP).  These packets can very massively in size which generally matters little.  However, I mention layer 4 (and there are 7), but the actual bytes travel in frames of only 1500 bytes (with an extra 14 for navigation purposes - to put it simply).  Every packet has to be broken down into frames, and different network types do it differently, and quite often, the packets are split into many frames, and according to our friend Murphy, don't always arrive intact (oops, just turned on the kettle or heating) or sometimes even in order.  This the Tivo or sometimes the network equipment has to either re-assemble OR ask for it to be resent - the latter WILL cause a pause).

I could go on all night here - but I won't.

Powerline adapters are great for TCP/IP based traffic which is NOT time critical, thus its perfect for web traffic, email and most other uses.  However it works BADLY for streaming video, which places a massive load on every part of hardware involved, as surprisingly does WIFI.  While on respite last year (I'm disabled) the TV service was provided by Roku adapters fed from expensive Cisco AP's located about 6ft away - even SD streaming was impossible).  I will confess to being surprised myself - but luckily was able to persuade the resident IT chap to place the convenient RJ45 socket behind the TV on the guest wifi VLAN and donated my own cable.  All was well.

We should also bear in mind one other factor - Tivo boxes, unlike much modern hardware, still uses 10/100 ethernet.  Unlike the token ring that I learned my trade on which could still work perfectly at 99.9% (anyone else remember T/R?) - ethernet starts to struggle with collisions (bad happenings) at anything above around 50% capacity.

My recommendation, and not ideal, but if you can, would be to invest in a decent managed (or at least smart) core switch in your attic, from which you run Cat 6 or higher cable (expensive, but worthwhile, and avoid CCA) down to smaller 5 or 8 port smart switches.  This I have done in my house, and like you I prefer TP/Link and have a 24 port SG2424 switch (which is remarkably clever - even having a CLI very similar to CATOS) and a collection of smaller smart 5 and 8 port switches.  The former is around £120, the latter around £25 for the 8 port.  You can buy for little premium now Cat 6 cable in a flat format which can run under carpet/underlay and also discretely along skirting board.

So to recap.  Don't waste money on powerline unless you have NO other choice whatsoever and the world is ending.  Don't relay on WIFI for transmitting useful data from one point to another.  It's great for tablets, phones and laptops, but not in your situation.  Do not settle for any network equipment which is less than 1Gigabit/second.  This does regrettably mean category 6 cable which is painfully expensive (and you should avoid Copper Cladded Aluminium - CCA which is basically like gold plated jewellery - looks nice, worth nothing).  If you're able to wire the plugs and sockets, it is more economical to buy by the reel (and if you can, you're better than me, my disability leaves me buying VERY long patch leads!).

The reality is that we're always going to want faster, more, and better.  You can never plan for +5 years ahead, but by going with cable'd ethernet, at 1gig using the proper quality cable, will see you through a lot AND stand a good chance potentially of even handling 10gig to some degree when it becomes necessary at the domestic level.  Indeed, the 24 port switch I mention has 4 GBIC ports which, while empty now, could have 10gig fibre adapters inserted now should you wish!

Whatever you choose - good luck - but as I've learned - there comes a time when trying to save money is a waste of money.  As motto's go, that comes right behind not having second credit cards on your account!

AndyBundy
-----------------
I don't work for VM. I am medically 'retired' after working for a large multi-national Telco and have spent fifteen years in WAN/LAN IP Networking, Network Management and IT Support.
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Superuser
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom


andybundy wrote:

Firstly, you are using the a figure on bandwidth for the box-box streaming requirement based on the (necessarily) average bandwidth required for an HD download of the same content through BBC IPlayer.  That's a good starting point, but one should consider that the amount of data downloaded and thus stored for the show, via cable, on the Tivo could be much higher, as the CODECs, whilst designed around the same foundation, likely a derivative of H264 or similar, are quite likely quite different in multiple respects.


Not quite - 1TB, divided by 125hrs, gives an HD content bitrate of ~18.6Mbps (which matches the bandwidth of a recording from a BBC HD channel). Were you to record all your HD content from Ch5 as they used to broadcast it, you'd be getting close to 400hrs as they were only using a 5Mbps stream.

So 50Mbps sustained, even through powerline connections, should be more than enough to stream Full HD TiVo to TiVo. What this exercise has highlighted though is that something in the OP's wiring isn't in favour of powerline networking, but that isn't the case for all - mine hold out at around 250Mbps, which is more than enough to send even MPEG2 video box to box.

In terms of future proofing the installation I can't disagree with the rest, albeit perhaps installing to a SME level might be a little bit of overkill Smiley Wink


TV: XL+SkySports V6
BB: 200Mbps SuperHub: Arris
Loc: ME10
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Superuser
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

You are indeed connected by Ethernet but your powerline adapter pair means you are using your electric wiring as the 'cable'.

Given the message you are getting, your powerlines and electric wiring are not up to the job.

Are either of your powerlines not directly plugged into a power socket (rather than an extension)?

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Superuser
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

What speed do you get through the powerline adaptors?

Anything else connected at all, or which powers up at the point of disconnection.


TV: XL+SkySports V6
BB: 200Mbps SuperHub: Arris
Loc: ME10
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diddley07
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

Thank you for your reply, the system has previously worked perfectly, both powerlines are directly into sockets both sockets are ring, not spurs or extension leads. I have just done two consecutive Speedtest.net tests using tab2 bedroom wifi and achieved 15 then 20 mbs download.test in lounge wired to hub 3.0 I got 70mbs.
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diddley07
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

Hi again, wired to hub 3.0 is PS3. (Never turned on) Smart TV in lounge,power line and TiVo box.The problem will occur when we are in bedroom using TiVo linkup with all other connected hardware switched off ( not in stand by).
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diddley07
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

Hi again I thought I was having a discussion with only one person so i may have sent your reply re anything connected to them. I have PS3 ( never turned on) smart Tv ( off not stand by) when link failure occurs, power line and lounge TiVo all connected to hub 3.0. Thanks Again for your time, this is the first ever forum I have used, so far I am very impressed with people's willingness to help, and speed of reply.
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Superuser
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

Is there anything you notice which powers on in the house at time of disconnection?

Edit: Now I'm lagging! Smiley Very Happy


TV: XL+SkySports V6
BB: 200Mbps SuperHub: Arris
Loc: ME10
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diddley07
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

If we are watching TiVo in bedroom the kids would be asleep so nothing on in with them but nightlight and clocks. No security lighting,storage heaters, washers etc. Just the fridge/freezer. The house is a bungalow built in 96. Hope this helps.
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Superuser
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

Can you try a wired speed test through the powerline adaptors?

I wouldn't have said that 20Mbps was enough to guarantee a stable stream, more like 50Mbps would be needed.


TV: XL+SkySports V6
BB: 200Mbps SuperHub: Arris
Loc: ME10
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diddley07
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Re: Keeping Tivo connected to Tivo in Bedroom

No problem, will do it this evening. Cheers.
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