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mike_
Posts: 305
Registered: ‎31-01-2012

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread


Adam1986 wrote:

canveyboy wrote:


mike_ wrote:
 


I just got a free upgrade to 100Mb, so a 50% reduction takes me back to 50Mb which is what I was paying for.

 

If I was originally a 100Mb customer, I'd be extremely angry right now, but as a 50Mb customer I now have a better service.



Yes the 50Mb/s users actually lose nothing, they are getting a FREE speed upgrade to 100Mb/s so when STM kicks in they just go back to their original paid for speeds (loosing nothing in the process)

 

However, the people on the 100Mb/s service (now) if they hit the STM will have half their paid for connection cut, making them the real loosers in all of this.

 

--

 

This is not true, it was announced by Virgin that anyone on the 100mb service in April would be reduced to the same pricing as the 50mb service.  There is a post from Mark saying this somewhere and I was told by CS a couple of months ago something along these lines:

 

Everyone from 50mb goes to 100mb, then the 100mb tier becomes 120mb in the summer, everyone already on 100mb receives a discount to the 50mb pricing in April (which I understand has gone up by a couple of quid) 

 

I even saved this when I signed into My Virgin Media once as it popped up:

 

discount.JPG

 

However saying that its now April and there has been no details so we probably arent getting the discount afterall...


What you just posted doesn't disagree with anything that you quoted. Only 100Mb users lose from this, 50Mb users are better off. They're paying the same, but get double the speed. Even once they've triggered STM, they're still at 50Mbps.

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Brainbox
Adam1986
Posts: 134
Registered: ‎21-06-2011

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread

What I am saying is, when the discount is applied for 100mb users to make the pricing the same as what 50mb users pay (one tier) then 50mb users are no better off as we will all be paying the same. Its only if 100mb users continue to pay more than we do now if we don't get the discount.
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Proof’s in the Pudding
mike_
Posts: 305
Registered: ‎31-01-2012

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread


Adam1986 wrote:
What I am saying is, when the discount is applied for 100mb users to make the pricing the same as what 50mb users pay (one tier) then 50mb users are no better off as we will all be paying the same. Its only if 100mb users continue to pay more than we do now if we don't get the discount.

50Mb customers will be better off because they get a superior service. Previously, it was 50Mb unlimited. Now it's 100Mb with an STM and a reduction to 50Mb unlimited once STM is triggered. 50Mb users aren't financially worse or better off, but their money now gets them a better product.

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Brainbox
Adam1986
Posts: 134
Registered: ‎21-06-2011

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread

I think you are missing my point, people who have paid for 100mb are supposed to be put onto the 50mb pricing as a discount so it all becomes one tier. So we will all be paying the same on 50/100mb as this tier is going to become 120mb.
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Sephiroth
Posts: 13,752
Registered: ‎01-09-2009

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread


Ojustaboo wrote:

canveyboy wrote:

For anyone that hasnt been with Vm that long or gone through the various levels of speeds that have been introduced over the years, It wasnt that far in the past where we had exactly the same discussions when STM was introduced to the 50Mb/s service when that was the top tier, it is no diffrent now, its here and basicly as last time round its gonna be a case of "suck it up" The T&S on STM and the introduction of it or changes to it is water tight and BenMCR knows his stuff, your not gonna trip him up on policy, he knows it better than anyone I've come across on these forums.



Well having spoken to trading standards and then being passed to the Citizens Advice Consumer department, they disagree.

 

While it doesn't affect me as I'm not under contract, I like to keep abreast of things and enquired out of interest.

 

-----------------------------

Based on the information you have provided, the key legal points in response to your enquiry are as follows:

 

When you are provided with a service you have rights against the trader under the Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982.  It  provides that any goods and materials supplied as part of the service should be of a satisfactory quality i.e. free from defects, be fit for purpose, and be as described.

 

I would advise in the first instance that you make a formal complaint to the company via a recorded delivery letter (keeping a copy for your records) requesting the issue resolved within a set period of time. Please feel free to get back in touch with an update if the issue remains unresolved.

 

If the issue remains unresolved after this time I would advise contacting Ombudsman Services: Communications as they may be able to assist further. Ombudsman Services: Communications is approved by Ofcom, the UK communications industry regulator, as an alternative dispute resolution service

 

I will make the details of your concerns available to Trading Standards for consideration, who may use the information for intelligence and enforcement purposes. Your contact details will be made available to them and they may contact you directly if they require any further information or are able to provide feedback in relation to this enquiry.


 


Part II of the Act (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/29) deals with services.  Read it and you will find that there is nothing there to cover this sort of case.  All that VM have to do under the Act is to provide a service with "reasonable care and skill".

 

Fitness for purpose is not covered in the Act in relation to services.  Whoever gave you the opinion you posted was referring to goods/materials supplied as part of the service.  Even the SuperDud isn't covered in this definition because the item hasn't transferred to you.  It belongs to VM.

 

It's best not to misinform people in this thread.

Seph - (My advice is at your risk)

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Proof’s in the Pudding
mike_
Posts: 305
Registered: ‎31-01-2012

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread

No, sorry, you're missing the point. Current 50Mb customers will be better off. Nobody is disagreeing that current 100Mb customers are getting screwed over.

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Fresh as a Daisy
connorgarcia
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎04-04-2012

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread

im paying for 50mb but getting 5, what the hell is going on ?
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Brainbox
Adam1986
Posts: 134
Registered: ‎21-06-2011

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread

I get the point you are making but what I am trying to say is at least current 100mb customers should be financially better off as we will at least be paying the same as ex 50mb...
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Brainbox
JackOfAll
Posts: 75
Registered: ‎29-02-2012

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread

[ Edited ]

BenMcr wrote:

And every time the term 'Unlimited' was used it was qualified with a reference to Traffic Management as per the appropriate OFCOM guidance available at the time.



Quite so! And I agree from a backside covering perspective you've done a pretty good job, but the question is to what degree you can apply traffic management whilst still selling a connection as up to 50Mbps or 100Mbps.

 

Just because you add "subject to traffic management", that's not going to cover selling someone a 100Mbps connection, that although it is subject to traffic management at the time the contract was signed, does not at that time have any "overall" downstream limits applied, (aside from upstream network capacity), and the following day "vary" the STM to throttle it to 1Mbps, 24 hours a day, while still calling it a 100Mbps "unlimited" connection! :smileywink:

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Superuser
canveyboy
Posts: 2,158
Registered: ‎17-08-2009

Re: Traffic Management Changes - Questions, Discussion and Feedback thread

[ Edited ]

Ojustaboo wrote:

canveyboy wrote:

For anyone that hasnt been with Vm that long or gone through the various levels of speeds that have been introduced over the years, It wasnt that far in the past where we had exactly the same discussions when STM was introduced to the 50Mb/s service when that was the top tier, it is no diffrent now, its here and basicly as last time round its gonna be a case of "suck it up" The T&S on STM and the introduction of it or changes to it is water tight and BenMCR knows his stuff, your not gonna trip him up on policy, he knows it better than anyone I've come across on these forums.



Well having spoken to trading standards and then being passed to the Citizens Advice Consumer department, they disagree.

 

While it doesn't affect me as I'm not under contract, I like to keep abreast of things and enquired out of interest.

 

-----------------------------

Based on the information you have provided, the key legal points in response to your enquiry are as follows:

 

When you are provided with a service you have rights against the trader under the Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982.  It  provides that any goods and materials supplied as part of the service should be of a satisfactory quality i.e. free from defects, be fit for purpose, and be as described.

 

I would advise in the first instance that you make a formal complaint to the company via a recorded delivery letter (keeping a copy for your records) requesting the issue resolved within a set period of time. Please feel free to get back in touch with an update if the issue remains unresolved.

 

If the issue remains unresolved after this time I would advise contacting Ombudsman Services: Communications as they may be able to assist further. Ombudsman Services: Communications is approved by Ofcom, the UK communications industry regulator, as an alternative dispute resolution service

 

I will make the details of your concerns available to Trading Standards for consideration, who may use the information for intelligence and enforcement purposes. Your contact details will be made available to them and they may contact you directly if they require any further information or are able to provide feedback in relation to this enquiry.

 

 



Once your original contract runs out, you are then classed as being on a rolling contract. every month when you pay, you are agreeing to the current T&S.

OFCOM wont help you. They do not deal with individual peoples cases, they will just register that you have a complaint and redirect you to CISAS who are a mediation service between the customer and VM, CISAS cannot force VM into changing policy, they are mediation only.

 

The service will still come under fit for purpose under STM.

The fit for purpose argument typicly only comes into effect when there is a fault with a customers service such as malfunctioning hardware or over utilisation or some customers causing the service to degrade for others, STM is an attempt to combat the service degredation for the many at the expense of the minority that can kill the service for other users in a particular area.

 

Anyone that thinks pressure via these forums or the threat of legal action (at the customers cost(which would be very expesive)) is totally deluded in thinking the STM policy will be overtuned.

 

I have been down these lines before with VM and they will not budge and will not be forced to budge either, at best, some unhappy customers might be alowed to leave while still in contract without penalty at VM's descretion.

Customers outside of contract / rolling contract can give 28 days notice to terminate services if they so wish.

 

As I have stated earlier this has all been done before when STM was introduced when the 50Mb/s was the top tier.

The 100Mb/s users have the most valid argument as although they are being given a price drop down to the 50Mb/s service level, they signed up for the 100Mb/s service and although they will be the ones getting a free upgrade to 120Mb/s they will be the ones taking a hit becase they get throttled back to 50Mb/s speeds, whereas the 50Mb/s users upgrade to 100Mb/s then getting throttled back to 50Mb/s speeds are in reality losing nothing.

 

VM employ an expensive legal team like many other large firms and have this sewn up, and I bet a penny to a pound that OFCOM knew the full T&S of these changes months ago and if there was a breach in regulatory terms this would not have been brought in.

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