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shire_dweller
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Message 11 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

 

IPv6 is definitely not limited to any local network. IPv6 is "already" (after only 15 years put forward as an Internet standard) in use by 1 to 6% of the global Internet, depending on how you measure it (data traffic, source address of website requests or BGP table advertisements). Check this article:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/03/as-much-as-one-percent-of-the-internet-is-now-using-...

 

To name two big services you can right now access natively with IPv6: Google and YouTube. There are thousands more websites that are already IPv6 enabled, all over the world. Just search for them. In the UK, there doesn't seem to be that many ( http://www.ipv6.org.uk , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6_deployment ) , but it would change radically if just one big provider like BT or Virgin Media started offering it to residential customers.  As for the smaller providers, it's not just AAISP to offer it in the UK, there are a few others too.  This search tool allows you to check the UK providers offering IPv6:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/search/package/advanced.html

 

In the USA, Comcast and Verizon have already started trials of IPv6 with residential customers. They are very large providers. ( http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Verizon-Begins-Residential-IPv6-FiOS-Test-107761http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.phpr/3825696/Comcast+Embraces+IPv6.htm )

 

Obviously, in the transition period you can use both IPv4 and IPv6 simultaneously, it's not a matter of choosing one over the other.

 

Personally, what I look forward to gain from IPv6 is to eventually get rid of NAT completely and have plenty of public IP addresses to each household (hundreds, thousands), one for each and every Interned-enabled device, free of charge (many ISPs currently charge for blocks of IPv4 addresses). This would enable so many P2P applications -- not just file sharing, but mainly voice/video communications and all sorts of push/pull notifications -- that currently struggle to become popular because of the costs of getting around NAT. (Most of the big and popular comms services, say Skype, spend a lot of money on centralised server farms just because direct P2P comms are blocked by NAT. Yes, there are ways around NAT, but they are mostly non-standard and often require complex router port forwarding configurations that are beyond most users' comprehension, time or interest.) (Also: there are very many articles on how to achieve the private-network security which comes as a side effect of NAT while using public IPv6 addresses, for instance: http://www.deepdarc.com/2010/02/06/ipv6-security/ )

 

 

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Superuser
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Message 12 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

facebook is ipv6 ready to.

 

i am using ipv6 tunnel but this means i need another computer to support my ipv6.

 

I will be moving the the first ISP to support IPv6. VM clam to be the UK best and most advanced ISP but they will not offer a service that has been around since 1990. disappointing 

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Message 13 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

 

Pinging www.v6.facebook.com [2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3] from 2001:470:935a:1234:2
c72:d4b8:dde4:763a with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3: time=161ms
Reply from 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3: time=162ms
Reply from 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3: time=161ms
Reply from 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3: time=162ms
Ping statistics for 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 161ms, Maximum = 162ms, Average = 161ms

Pinging www.v6.facebook.com [2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3] from 2001:470:935a:1234:2c72:d4b8:dde4:763a with 32 bytes of data:Reply from 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3: time=161msReply from 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3: time=162msReply from 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3: time=161msReply from 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3: time=162ms
Ping statistics for 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3:    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:    Minimum = 161ms, Maximum = 162ms, Average = 161ms

 

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zeke
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Message 14 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

There's an easy way to get IPv6 support on your existing connection without signing up with a tunnelling broker service but it requires either upgrading your router software or getting another router entirely.  Of course you could use a computer, but it's inefficient unless you already have a computer you leave on all the time already.

 

I have a Linksys WRT54GS v2.1 splitting my main connection to three PCs and an Xbox, plus a wireless to another PC and any folks who stop by and want to use their laptops.  It runs DD-WRT, a third party firmware that is full of options.  As my router has 8MB of flash I installed the largest build available.

 

It was fairly easy to enable IPv6 using the scripting functions; you enable Radvd and paste in a script, go to Startup commands and paste in another one then you save the changes and restart the router.  If you've done it correctly you have set up a 6to4 tunnelling protocol which assigns your network "ad-hoc" IPv6 addresses which start with 2002 prefix.  To test, just go to an IPv6-only site like ipv6.google.com or ping it from the command line.  If you use Firefox, you can also install ShowIP which sits at the bottom right of the browser and informs you if a site is IPv4, IPv6 or both.

 

You see, although Virgin don't have native IPv6 support - I'm assuming at this stage because many customers are using old blue NTL modems or the only slightly different black Virgin-branded ones which only support up to EuroDOSCIS 2.0 and they don't want the expense of rolling out an upgrade if the old modem hardware can support it, or a whole new line of modems - they don't block the IPv4 address 192.88.99.1 which acts as a gateway for tunnelling IPv6 sites across the existing IPv4 infrastructure.  All it requires is a router capable of handling the tunnelling protocol.

 

Having said all this, every ISP in the UK should be feverishly making their networks IPv6 compliant, not just specialists.  It's pretty sickening that Korea has faster internet services than GB, it really is.  What we consider "fast" would be considered average or slow by those folks.  Also, asymmetrical services are still a joke... good luck if you want to host a small web server or try to connect to your computer from other networks.  Trying to use VNC services even with the host computer running 800x600 is painfully slow.


____________________________________________________________________________________________

Samsung LE32C530, Virgin Media TiVo, Acer Revo R3610 HTPC 4TB, Xbox 360 Halo Slim, Sony PS2HDD, Sony STR-DE595 Home Cinema Amp
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shire_dweller
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Message 15 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

zeke, thanks for the suggestion! It prompted me to learn more about 6to4, which really seems to be a great way of playing with IPv6 behind an IPv4 ISP
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6to4 ,
http://www.ipv6tf.org/index.php?page=using/connectivity/6to4 ,
http://packetlife.net/blog/2010/mar/17/using-6to4-ipv6-home/ )


And apparently, it's been in actual use for many years. I've found this forum where people were discussing, back in 2003, the traceroutes of the 192.88.99.1 6to4 gateway from their (mostly USA) ISPs: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r17914554-Where-does-your-6to4-relay-address-19288991-go


I am using Virgin Media cable at home in Cambridge-UK and this what I get from ping and traceroute:

 

$ ping 192.88.99.1
PING 192.88.99.1 (192.88.99.1): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 192.88.99.1: icmp_seq=0 ttl=247 time=23.030 ms
64 bytes from 192.88.99.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=247 time=24.794 ms
64 bytes from 192.88.99.1: icmp_seq=4 ttl=247 time=22.051 ms
64 bytes from 192.88.99.1: icmp_seq=5 ttl=247 time=39.947 ms
64 bytes from 192.88.99.1: icmp_seq=7 ttl=247 time=22.488 ms

 

$ traceroute 192.88.99.1
traceroute to 192.88.99.1 (192.88.99.1), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
 1  [home router]  0.947 ms  0.328 ms  0.340 ms
 2  10.128.192.1 (10.128.192.1)  7.625 ms  7.111 ms  8.074 ms
 3  cmbg-cam-1a-ge912.network.virginmedia.net (80.1.202.73)  7.388 ms  8.881 ms  18.748 ms
 4  cmbg-core-1a-ge-013-0.network.virginmedia.net (195.182.179.206)  8.637 ms  8.670 ms  9.633 ms
 5  popl-bb-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net (212.43.163.141)  13.839 ms  15.044 ms  10.564 ms
 6  brnt-bb-1b-as4-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.255.81.238)  35.893 ms  12.642 ms  13.835 ms
 7  telc-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.253.185.74)  13.170 ms  14.120 ms  13.566 ms
 8  ge-3-22-0-cr1.thn.as9153.net (195.66.226.71)  31.567 ms  13.200 ms  15.818 ms
 9  po-2-0-700-cr2.sov.as9153.net (82.136.0.205)  12.648 ms  14.701 ms  12.949 ms
10  gi0-1-warlock.sov.kewlio.net.uk (82.136.1.142)  21.112 ms  23.631 ms  19.267 ms
11  * * *
12  * * *
13  * * *


Unfortunately, traceroute doesn't complete (went on to 45 * * * until I killed it). I hope this isn't an indication that 6to4 would fail; after all, ping worked. A ping time of 24ms isn't great, but I suppose it could be worse. I'm guessing/hoping the 6to4 gateway answering to my ping was located at some London exchange, e.g. http://as9153.net It would be sad if it was going via the Americas, China, Japan...


What are you getting from traceroute, especially from other UK ISPs? (Other than Virgin Media cable)

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Superuser
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Message 16 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

 


shire_dweller wrote:

.......

Unfortunately, traceroute doesn't complete (went on to 45 * * * until I killed it). I hope this isn't an indication that 6to4 would fail; after all, ping worked. A ping time of 24ms isn't great, but I suppose it could be worse. I'm guessing/hoping the 6to4 gateway answering to my ping was located at some London exchange, e.g. http://as9153.net ......


 

Smiley Wink   .....errr remember you're using ICMP for ping which BurstFire peering is not blocking,  UDP for traceroute which BurstFire edge routers are blocking!.....   so if you emulated your tunnel with a TCPtraceroute then you should find it makes the trip!

 

Clearly if you were hopping across the "pond" then your latency would be a tad more than 30-50ms anyway! Smiley Wink

 

Enjoy...... 

Regards Tony
"Life is a Binary Inspired Turing Computed Hologram"(don't PM or @Mention me - in case ignoring you offends)
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shire_dweller
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Message 17 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

Indeed, UDP was being blocked. TCP was even worse, at least with the traceroute tool I'm using: command line on Mac OS X 10.6.4. However, ICMP went through:


$ traceroute -P icmp 192.88.99.1
traceroute to 192.88.99.1 (192.88.99.1), 64 hops max, 72 byte packets
 1  revo (10.203.29.1)  0.913 ms  0.335 ms  0.361 ms
 2  10.128.192.1 (10.128.192.1)  34.570 ms  9.515 ms  6.676 ms
 3  cmbg-cam-1a-ge912.network.virginmedia.net (80.1.202.73)  24.142 ms  17.251 ms  8.749 ms
 4  cmbg-core-1a-ge-013-0.network.virginmedia.net (195.182.179.206)  34.858 ms  9.383 ms  9.004 ms
 5  popl-bb-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net (212.43.163.141)  16.861 ms  15.970 ms  49.994 ms
 6  brnt-bb-1b-as4-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.255.81.238)  37.789 ms  28.749 ms  16.969 ms
 7  telc-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.253.185.74)  32.951 ms  13.514 ms  14.404 ms
 8  ge-3-22-0-cr1.thn.as9153.net (195.66.226.71)  14.949 ms  24.046 ms  15.256 ms
 9  po-2-0-700-cr2.sov.as9153.net (82.136.0.205)  13.060 ms  13.432 ms  25.085 ms
10  gi0-1-warlock.sov.kewlio.net.uk (82.136.1.142)  45.193 ms  22.543 ms  20.411 ms
11  192.88.99.1 (192.88.99.1)  51.425 ms  23.340 ms  31.785 ms


Tony, why BurstFire? Are you implying it's BurstFire who owns or operates the 192.88.99.1 router I'm reaching from Virgin Cable? BurstFire describe themselves as a Tier 2 ISP, which Wikipedia kindly and graphically clarified. Am I to understand that Virgin Media is a Tier 3 ISP, purchasing (some) IP transit from BurstFire?

 


Clearly if you were hopping across the "pond" then your latency would be a tad more than 30-50ms anyway! ;-)



Right - I couldn't remember the typical values and was lazy to do calculations. Google Maps tells me it's some 6,000Km from New York to London, and this Internet Monitoring Tutorial suggests 60% of speed of light (0.6c) as a reference fastest bit-propagation speed (green line on the Round-trip time versus distance graph). With these, I should expect at least 66ms (33ms each way) ping result if the 6to4 gateway was in New York. Very well, it must be somewhere nearer.

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shire_dweller
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Message 18 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

Update: the TCP traceroute had probably failed because I tried running it behind NAT (either some TCP RST or ICMP packets were being dropped - I hate NAT). Running it with a public IPv4 address worked fine.
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zeke
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Message 19 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media

"zeke, thanks for the suggestion! It prompted me to learn more about 6to4, which really seems to be a great way of playing with IPv6 behind an IPv4 ISP... and apparently, it's been in actual use for many years. I've found this forum where people were discussing, back in 2003, the traceroutes of the 192.88.99.1 6to4 gateway from their (mostly USA) ISPs"

 

Sounds about right.  I have no shame in admitting that I'm late to the party on that front... it's an old standard that I was unaware of.

 

But it stands to reason that most British users would be ignorant... using the tunnelling protocol brings slightly slower ping results and right now, very few sites are IPv6-enabled in any significant way.

 

In the future if you have a connection capable of both IPv4 and IPv6 and you state a preference for IPv6 you _might_ get better speeds assuming everyone else on your local FTTC is using IPv4, but it's not certain.  Chances are even if you have native IPv6 from another provider you'll still be using exactly the same network pathways to reach remote servers.

 

The migration to IPv6 is mostly fuelled by dreams, as is the case with many things.  With a proper migration, each computer will have a couple of permanent addresses that will ignore usual NAT pathways and allow more seamless connections so wherever you are you can find a specific computer.  The security risks of this are obvious, which might explain why takeup has been slow... sure, anyone can find anyone else, but won't you miss the security of a changing IP?

 

Virgin are actually respectible in terms of pooling IPv4 addresses.  If you need (or want) a new one, change the MAC of your router.  Even basic router software allows this, and it is as simple as changing the MAC via router software and rebooting the modem.  We need this ability with IPv6... like any standard that seeks to replace another, it needs to have all the abilities of the previous standard with flawless backward compatibility and more besides.

 

---

 

"Unfortunately, traceroute doesn't complete (went on to 45 * * * until I killed it). I hope this isn't an indication that 6to4 would fail; after all, ping worked. A ping time of 24ms isn't great, but I suppose it could be worse. I'm guessing/hoping the 6to4 gateway answering to my ping was located at some London exchange, e.g. http://as9153.net It would be sad if it was going via the Americas, China, Japan..."

 

Mine fails on step 10 as well.  Never affected the tunnelling, but if you're telnetted into the router and you see this it is easy to think something is wrong.  Sadly, as far as I can tell, this is as good as UK IPv6 support gets without paying extra for native support through a company like AAISP.  Even with bottlenecking, because Virgin have FTTC in many regions it will often be faster than BT-based ADSL support.  It is poor, but those are the facts... when it comes to global broadband takeup, the British are far, far behind.


____________________________________________________________________________________________

Samsung LE32C530, Virgin Media TiVo, Acer Revo R3610 HTPC 4TB, Xbox 360 Halo Slim, Sony PS2HDD, Sony STR-DE595 Home Cinema Amp
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shire_dweller
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Message 20 of 415
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Re: IPv6 support on Virgin media


The migration to IPv6 is mostly fuelled by dreams, as is the case with many things. With a proper migration, each computer will have a couple of permanent addresses that will ignore usual NAT pathways and allow more seamless connections so wherever you are you can find a specific computer. The security risks of this are obvious, which might explain why takeup has been slow... sure, anyone can find anyone else, but won't you miss the security of a changing IP?


Getting rid of NAT and private IP addresses can only be a good thing. This blog post elaborates on issues of Security and Privacy related to your worries: http://www.deepdarc.com/2010/02/06/ipv6-security/


As the blog mentions, RFC 3041 tackles the "problem" of an IPv6 address identifying an specific network interface (laptop or PC), for embodying its worldwide unique (unless modified) MAC address. As for the privacy derived from dynamically allocated IPv4 addresses, I'd argue it's fictitious: even if you get a different IPv4 address from Virgin when changing your router's MAC address, Virgin is still able (maybe even legally required?) to detect and log which house had which IP address at which date and time. Outside Virgin, anyone can anyway obtain the information of which ISP a certain IP address is assigned to, be it dynamic or static.


In summary, so far I haven't been convinced that IPv6, when/if well configured, is any worse than IPv4+NAT in terms of privacy and security. But I agree that "when/if well configured" is a very strong reservation, and it will take years until security software and hardware settles on best IPv6 security practices.