Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

[Datalink]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.

The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...

Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...

Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...

That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.

Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.

Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

[arronlowley]

its all good, i will be away from the pos for a longgg time, im getting connected with sky tomorrow, i will be enjoying low latency gaming once more, after 12 months of unstable ping.

[tommey]

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@arronlowley wrote:

its all good, i will be away from the pos for a longgg time, im getting connected with sky tomorrow, i will be enjoying low latency gaming once more, after 12 months of unstable ping.

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I was going to give you Kudos but you then said Sky so I jumped off a cliff instead bye............

[nallar]

Hi,

Can the forum team get my Hub 3 swapped out for a Hub 2?

It's been 9 weeks since I first asked and various people at virgin have said no, including the person who phoned me back when I emailed the executive complaints department.

If you can't get something done about this by Friday I'm going to submit a complaint to CISAS.

[Tolaris]

Update: replacement of SuperHub 3 with 2ac failed. Followed automated provisioning instructions, new 2ac modem never joined network. Called tech support, who did their best to help. But during conversation it was clear they misunderstood and were trying to "upgrade me from 2ac to 3", the opposite of what I intended. Eventually we gave up and used the SuperHub 3 again, while scheduling an installer to come later in Feb to help.

This is unacceptable,Virgin. You're using your tech support people to cover for your poor engineering practices (here I refer to the clear lack of hardware testing).

[JJC1138]

@Tolaris: Sorry to hear that, but thanks for keeping us up to date. If the 2ac works out for you in the end I'll definitely be following in your footsteps, and I expect many others will too!

[arronlowley]

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@tommey wrote:

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@arronlowley wrote:

its all good, i will be away from the pos for a longgg time, im getting connected with sky tomorrow, i will be enjoying low latency gaming once more, after 12 months of unstable ping.

---

I was going to give you Kudos but you then said Sky so I jumped off a cliff instead bye............

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whats wrong with sky? look at this ping, what a beauty.

[WhyLieToUs]

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@Lrod107 wrote:

Just recently stumbled onto this thread after 13 months of battling with VM.    Ironically I was given the SH3 to solve the issue of me regularly getting 2-7mbps on a 200mbps line.  Needless to say they not only failed to fix that issue, but have now introduced this latency problem.

Now stuck with rubbish speeds and literally off the chart latency issues which have made online gaming impossible.

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You guys are LUCKY.. You are unhappy with 200ms latency... we had 3000ms latency (yes, 3k, no typo). Needless to say we booted the SH3 POS and got a SH2 back.... but does the SH2AC cope with 200Mbit? I'd like to get 200Mbit IF my area ever gets fixed from the "overuse" that we bad customers are doing!?

[Exasive]

Hi all, just to add the the boat, i've spoke to someone from the Chat service team (as im at work) they're convinced that Arris haven't contacted them to advise of any issues of this problem and the super hub 3 is still superior to the Hub2, Seems i'm getting mixed messages....

unless there has been a software upgrade i'm not aware of? 

in my area there is a utilization fault - They're using that as a cover up for the high ping during off peak hours.

[IainOb1]

So if this issue is not fixed what response and action will VM take? as providing faulty goods is not acceptable and have a duty to offer either a fix or an alternative.

This issue was picked up in the trails and still shipped. They really should not be supplying these broken hubs and supplying an alternative. Ofcom or what ever governing body should be forcing VM to take action. It is about time that people could use third party modems instead of these terrible hubs. All of them have issues, such as wifi drop outs, internet drop outs etc. I had to buy a router and use the hub v2 in modem mode ss the wifi would turn off or drop out. The internet would drop out. Now with the new router ive had no more drop outs at all.

Only issue i have now is flucuating uploads and downloads since the speed was upped to 100Mb. Gaming is useless on VM too much latency. Its like your playing a different game to every one else.

Engineers are out soon, hope they can sort the fluctuations out otherwise i will have to change ISP to a more gaming suitable service.

[SCA1972]

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@WhyLieToUs wrote:

You guys are LUCKY.. You are unhappy with 200ms latency... we had 3000ms latency (yes, 3k, no typo). Needless to say we booted the SH3 POS and got a SH2 back.... but does the SH2AC cope with 200Mbit? I'd like to get 200Mbit IF my area ever gets fixed from the "overuse" that we bad customers are doing!?

The SH2 & SH2AC can cope with 200Mbps, I have had the 200 tier for over a year with my SH2.

______________________
Scott

Disclaimer - I don't work for Virgin Media. I'm just another VM user trying to help out so my answers may be wrong  If my answer solves your problem please mark it as helpful as it may help others
My setup: Vivid 200 Optical fibre with Superhub 2 in modem mode connected to a Netgear R7000 router. Telewest/VM user since 2001.