Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

[Datalink]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.

The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...

Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...

Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...

That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.

Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.

Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

[chrisnewton]

Jesus complicated! All I wanted to do was play fortnite battle royale and rocket league online,

[Piers]

You should be able to play those, although performance is likely to be lower than every other major provider of broadband internet services in the UK (within reason). This did not used to be the standard for Virgin Media, especially predecessor brand names, and is less to do with network infrastructure and more to do with flawed hardware provided to the end-user (the Hub 3). I do play some games and mostly find performance is just about acceptable. There are many factors, such as routing, ping latency and jitter, the server you're connecting to, etc. that needs to be taken into consideration. If all of those are fair, then the average performance on many games, including ones where ping is key, should be OK'ish.

[nad223]

hub 3 is a total joke gonna cancel virgin going else where had enough of this bs its been going on for too long now possibly go to bt for time being and when bt fibre is available in my area will be going for that virgin media is a total waste of a company before this evrerything used to be ok but now nearly every month internet keeps going down they send engineer checks everything and says its all ok  theres nothing we can do going to try bt see how they are....

[Guybrush85]

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@ShadowOfDeth69 wrote:
@Guybrush85

I'd say as far as everyone complaining VM are 100% at fault. There's no way they didn't know about the issues when you know for a fact there were customer trial units sent out for testing. Nobody picked this up and reported back?

They knew full well there were problems yet decided to push ahead with the rollout regardless. They've known all this time and STILL send engineers out with the Hub 3.

Virgin Media. Totally to blame for this whole thing as far as we are concerned. Forget Arris and Intel. They aren't forcing us to use there equipment.

On an unrelated note. How do we quote people here in the forum?

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There's a lot of assumptions in there without much grounds. We are in a position today with newer CMTS' and DS Channels locking in at 24. Back when the trials were taking place, it was at 18, and 16 started to come in at most. One thing that seems to be almost always a factor in this is the more DS channels in play, the worse things look (probably down to CPU load).

Back to the testing.... Cablelabs, the independent body responsible for testing these things didn't pick it up. Sure, ICMP looked bad on a TBB graph, but nobody was testing TCP/UDP through proper tools. SamKnows boxes certainly weren't screaming anything, probably due to the frequency they check in. 

So whilst the hub 3 was no angel at release, the level of the issue wasn't known till after. That said, my whole thing about handling/moral standing fits the bill for the rest of it. Although finding another hub is not quite an easy task and you could assume that everyone is hoping for some kind of fix.... but a year in now without any end in sight really!

Quoting... Erm, not sure you can on a phone (if that's what you were using), but from a PC there's a button in the top right of the reply box. 

[LdGallifryan]

I think due to the fact of how much troubleshooting we have done and requests on resolving the ongoing issues..

We are requesting for a SH2AC or an entirely better management by allowing us to buy our own Docsis modem.. but as Goodwill Gusture that a voucher from VM for all the hassle to pay for a modem of our own choice!

I have seen online that you can complain to CISAS. As it is a OfCom like company.

I am thinking about contacting them but, to afraid to just incase they give me no help.

Looking on the reddit post recently about this superhub 3.0 that the persons VM BQM and his Nans.. dame it is a big difference!

[donniem]

Looking on the reddit post recently about this superhub 3.0 that the persons VM BQM and his Nans.. dame it is a big difference!

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Here it is https://cg0.uk/puma/

Really quite incredible

[LdGallifryan]

It is really bad.. I mean what does the nan use BT?

The price of Broadband from Virgin is the most expensive out of the big 5..

(Virgin, BT, Sky, TalkTalk, PlusNet)

[chrisnewton]

So is there no hope of getting this fixed??

[LdGallifryan]

To be honest.. the answer to that is a No.

Reason being the Puma 6 Chip has many faults and however much information you hear about a Firmware Fix.. it will only mask the issues on the BQM Graphs.. not actually remedy the problem.

[コナー]

Hey, that link is mine, my Nan uses Sky Fibre Pro, syncing at around 60mbps down, 12mbps up.