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yabba
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Message 2961 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause


@wrote:

What happens when the packet(s) are delayed by 200 to 300 ms?  In theory you have a string of packets arriving one after the other, with some packets potentially lost as they timed out in the modem itself. I suppose as you indicated "stuff will jump around".  I can't see anyway around that.  


In UDP it'll be specific to the application. 

Most game engines take your keystrokes and movements and apply them "at the time they happened" rather than "at the time they arrived" they do this by rolling back time on server. This typically means if you saw someone on your client and hit them then it will register as a hit on the server, i.e you don't have to lead players to account for network lag. It does however mean you get artifacts like you can look around a wall, step back and then die to a shot - this is because you were shot while you were looking but the server only resolves this after you hid.

Why does it do that when the client knows you hit them? Well because people are dishonest and the server can't trust the clients.

When you see kids in games saying "Whaa whaa Bill is hacking he's shooting people through walls" - this is their ignorance about lag compensation.

In terms of the client it interpolates movement to make it look like everyone is moving smoothly.

Firstly you have to realise, whatever your FPS, let's say it's 120fps. Most multiplayer games are not sending 120 updates a second. By default some only send around 20. So everything is choppy. If you saw what your typical multiplayer game actually looked like without client interpolation and lag compensation it would be a choppy mess.

The whole thing where people are running around smoothly (even if you have a low ping) is an illusion created by client interpolation.

And the default time for interpolation is set so that even if a snapshot is lost it doesn't matter. Obviously there are limits but ironically where it goes wrong is often when people who are ignorant about how it works decide to change their settings and they turn off a lot of the features that would workaround issues like the odd slow packet.

They have their config so it works great if and only if you have a close to perfect internet connection.

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ShadowOfDeth69
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Message 2962 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

@plums1234

Do you play online at all? If yes have you noticed an improvement?
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RidingTheFlow
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Message 2963 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

Ok time for longish post again least we have impression "SH3 is good, 100ms spikes are nothing, problem is overblown, VM should just ignore the whiners, etc".

Full disclaimer - I am a long time game programmer myself and no stranger to solving network quirks in good old days of 64kbit internet and 500ms roundtrips. I've also spent extensive time analysing whatever SH3 done to my connection after VM "upgraded" me (I wasn't aware of problem at the time) and I've noticed the odd choppiness (as a game programmer I have a discerning eye for frame rate and jitter), so had to do full analysis with packet analysers etc, since I went all way up to VM CEO office to prove I really am affected and need that downgrade.

First of all, let remind ourselves, what is SH3 problem? Problem is, it delays packets roughly each one minute by amount of time above 100ms dependant on amount of bound channels - in worst scenarios up to 150ms. Also it completely drops UDP packets sometimes. There is a beta firmware which by all intents appears to be Arris "V" firmware which solves delays with ICMP packets (making ping appear stable & good) and UDP dropouts (leading to more responsive websurfing experience), but leaves per-minute 100-150ms spikes on all other traffic (TCP & UDP) as they were. Arguably fixing ICMP (which mostly used for diagnosis) while leaving TCP&UDP with problem did nothing but muddle issue (I don't think it was deliberate attempt to hide it, just "fix whatever we can manage to").

It is true that most game engines interpolate and do pretty good job of hiding odd jitter. So most likely your objects on screen still move well and smooth. Does this mean everything is hunky-dory? Not necessary. Under hood, there are still per-minute irregular 100ms spikes in latency.

The server can't reverse causality, if it known that player pressed the trigger 150ms latter, that it. Yes, there are certain "rewind time" techniques, but its not magic - all it can be done is by delaying (buffering) everything which limits by how much you can actually "rewind time". Simplified, this means that to rewind this 120ms spike, you need at least 120 ms of buffer. This is too long for most modern games - most modern games don't expect users internet connections to be that bad! Creating 100ms of buffering will make very "laggy" experience for everyone - since there will be too perceptive delay for all people reaction.

Netflix, youtube, anything not-realtime streaming will be fine, no surprise. Since its not realtime, its usually have huge buffers up to several seconds - enough to absorb jitter 10x times worse.

Something like RDP won't bear as good though. Move a mouse and you will instantly spot difference in perceived "choppiness" comparing to SH2AC - specifically because many "server-side mouse" techniques explicitly depend on roundtrip staying as fast & consistent as possible.

Its true that network game engines working at ~20fps is not uncommon (though I must say many fast-paced games now increase it, since it may be simply too sluggish for twitch shooters). However 20fps is 50 ms per frame. Having 100ms lag spike still will drop at least one frame which will not be interpolated - again, because most games a) don't expect very "spiky" jitter and b) unable to completely absorb such large delay completely.

How this delay will affect you will vary by game and playstyle. I'd say it still possible to spot it (I did after all), but you really have to have discerning eye, and only in certain games with low buffering and sustained lag requirements <40ms.

More likely and regular effect which actually happens is "control jitter", which is mostly invisible. It only have "indirect effect", like, decreasing accuracy of your shots. Imagine trying to lead something fast moving, while something slightly bumping your aim every minute, but without you noticing, because game client & server try their best job to hide it. Still in many cases you will miss shots simply because you've happened to press trigger when lag spike happened - server is not prescient, unable to remove that spike, and you miss a shot while you shoul've hit - but normally it happens when everything is moving so fast anyway, so you kind of "bah, whatever, I did miss I guess". It would be fine if this "hidden shoulder bump" will happen only each hour or so, like on usual modern domestic internet, but with SH3 it happens every minute, like a clock.

So in a nutshell:

- does problem exist? yes

- does it affect games & applications? yes, because lag spikes are here

- does it affect them do detrimental extent? this entirely up to specific user expectation and needs

Most argument I see here stems from desire to make "one shirt that fits everybody", e.g. trying to claim that "SH3 is universally bad" or "SH3 problem is overblown and could be completely ignored". This is pointless IMO and better to stay on topic discussing the actual problem impact (measured impact preferrably) and possible solutions.

 

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Guybrush85
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Message 2964 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

So wait... they tested a new release with a handful of people, didn't release that to the general public, but the released one that hadn't been tested (to my knowledge). 

I either hope it's the same release, but a different version number or that at least a very small number of people did test it. Seems completely bizzare that they would do this, although in the same breath... unsuprising. 

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Badvok
On our wavelength
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Message 2965 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause


@RidingTheFlowwrote:

So in a nutshell:

- does problem exist? yes

- does it affect games & applications? yes, because lag spikes are here

- does it affect them do detrimental extent? this entirely up to specific user expectation and needs

 


You forgot to include a: "My BQM graph looks bad, I really need it fixed. What are VM playing at?" category.

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nickking
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Message 2966 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

My Hub 3.0 took a massive **** overnight it seems, it was inaccessible this morning (remotely) until I had VM support restart the router.

hub322dc1c2f4e5aa00c44c2db4cbc0630a06ebc76dc.png

Still on the trial firmware so no update yet for me.

It makes me sad to compare my graph to my mate who managed to get his Superhub 2ac reactivated (he had an outage yesterday during the day).

hub2ac0b9bac914590be737475dccbf36d160cb5b02b03-13-02-2018.png

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plums1234
Tuning in
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Message 2967 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

Hi, yes I play FPS on XB1X, like PUBG, COD's, TF2 would be my most played online, I don't see the momentary freeze or dropped frames I used to see, I know that might not be correct terminology and there's a debate going on here about it and i'm not trying to get involved in either, but to me was like a micro stutter and people could teleport a few feet in game terms making them not where I was aiming, felt like the data lost for the split second, also the said games feel smoother and more responsive now, like it used to be on my Sky Fibre.....I used to win 90% of 1 on 1's now I'm losing 90% of them and dead before I even see them now lol might be because I'm an old man and the lag helped me lol
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boltedenergy
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Message 2968 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause


@RidingTheFlowwrote:

Ok time for longish post again least we have impression "SH3 is good, 100ms spikes are nothing, problem is overblown, VM should just ignore the whiners, etc".

So in a nutshell:

- does problem exist? yes

- does it affect games & applications? yes, because lag spikes are here

- does it affect them do detrimental extent? this entirely up to specific user expectation and needs

Most argument I see here stems from desire to make "one shirt that fits everybody", e.g. trying to claim that "SH3 is universally bad" or "SH3 problem is overblown and could be completely ignored". This is pointless IMO and better to stay on topic discussing the actual problem impact (measured impact preferrably) and possible solutions.

 


One thing I would like raise from your points is that the firmware released now to general VM users is not the same version as the beta release so there may have been further improvements since you last ran all your checks?

--I'm just another virgin user like you. Please mark my answer as helpful, if it helped Smiley Happy
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Guybrush85
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Message 2969 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause


@boltedenergywrote:

@RidingTheFlowwrote:

Ok time for longish post again least we have impression "SH3 is good, 100ms spikes are nothing, problem is overblown, VM should just ignore the whiners, etc".

So in a nutshell:

- does problem exist? yes

- does it affect games & applications? yes, because lag spikes are here

- does it affect them do detrimental extent? this entirely up to specific user expectation and needs

Most argument I see here stems from desire to make "one shirt that fits everybody", e.g. trying to claim that "SH3 is universally bad" or "SH3 problem is overblown and could be completely ignored". This is pointless IMO and better to stay on topic discussing the actual problem impact (measured impact preferrably) and possible solutions.

 


One thing I would like raise from your points is that the firmware released now to general VM users is not the same version as the beta release so there may have been further improvements since you last ran all your checks?


See my comments above about the new release.

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コナー
Dialled in
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Message 2970 of 3,183
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Re: Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

Looks like I got the new firmware rolled out to me, not home so all I can comment on right now is my BQM which while showing less ICMP spiking still shows a large amount of 2x spiking


My Broadband Ping - VIVID 350


Forever waiting for the Hub 4
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