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Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

Datalink
Up to speed

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.


The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...


Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...


Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...


That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.


Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.


Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 

 

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

4,478 REPLIES 4,478

well said thats wat im doing next year going else where......


@purplemonkeyspa wrote:


https://imgur.com/gallery/rlJYo (top of the board 😎 haha) <<<< Yup that's the puma 6 issue (how you don't notice this in game is amazing)

The speed test results bother me however. Only getting just over 100 down and 10 up... WiFi is not a reliable test method



Testing your speed using WiFi or a PS4 will not give reliable results, PS4 limit speeds anyway, to test correctly you need to use a wired connection to a laptop or desktop using at least a cat5e cable, can you not borrow one from a friend or family member?

https://imgur.com/gallery/cWDmW

Using WiFi. Had to change something in the router's wireless settings but it's proof wireless is comparable to ethernet.

Apparently there's an issue in my area and I'm getting massively reduced speeds during the day. That screenshot was taken at 04:40ish.

Also maybe the Hub 3 issues aren't as bad as some are making out??? I have yet to suffer any lag in-game or network errors. Not a single one. My ping to game servers was 25-29. There's is absolutely nothing wrong with gaming so far.

@purplemonkeyspa

The ping you're seeing in game is an average, or a low resolution sample (i.e. updated every 1/2 seconds).
On the current production firmware when I ping the SH3 internally, (wired connection, ping -t 192.168.0.1) I see round trip times from 1ms up to ~90ms, and that's just within my own LAN!

AFAIK the new beta firmware resolves these delays with ICMP responses, but does nothing to address the same issue with TCP/UDP packets. Effectively making it much harder to diagnose.

Admittedly from virgin's point of view, it will probably calm the masses as it's no longer so simple to visually prove the issue. However as others have mentioned in this thread, you can use pingplotter in TCP or UDP mode to see the problem still exists.

I don't know what to tell you, man.

The game I play most (Battlefield 1) not only has a ping count but it also has various network error indicators that pop-up on-screen during times of high latency or packet loss. I have not seen a single error indicator pop-up and I've been watching this sucker like a hawk.

I can honestly say the experience is pretty damn good so far. Same great gameplay as on my Sky BB's 21ms.

My console's connection is via ethernet and nothing else is using the connection other than phone. Dunno if that's why I'm not seeing anything. I really do not know what to tell you.

I was really dreading getting VM installed after this particular thread but I am pleasantly surprised! I'm not doubting for a second there are people having genuine problems though.


@Drewley wrote:

@purplemonkeyspa

The ping you're seeing in game is an average, or a low resolution sample (i.e. updated every 1/2 seconds).
On the current production firmware when I ping the SH3 internally, (wired connection, ping -t 192.168.0.1) I see round trip times from 1ms up to ~90ms, and that's just within my own LAN!

AFAIK the new beta firmware resolves these delays with ICMP responses, but does nothing to address the same issue with TCP/UDP packets. Effectively making it much harder to diagnose.

Admittedly from virgin's point of view, it will probably calm the masses as it's no longer so simple to visually prove the issue. However as others have mentioned in this thread, you can use pingplotter in TCP or UDP mode to see the problem still exists.


I think I've seen this in action. When you're queuing for a competitive match in Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, the console displays some latency numbers as it's trying to matchmake to a good server for everyone in the game. Those numbers are all hovering around 100ms, however, when I get in game my ping is around 50 (CS:GO's always had slightly higher ping because we're never lucky on UK servers, always German or Swedish, still playable though). 

 

Waaaaa back on hub 3 sucks so bad... i could show u screen shots of the ping -t 192.168.0.1 which have a ms response of around 206ms 😮 directly wired nothing else connected

So the issue is still present and i have a brand new box...

 

Also i rang up and complained enough that they put a engineer out to my house this week and on the notes they said "will take away hub 3 and install super hub 2" and i asked the same question...how do they even have hub 2s ? i was told they have to have old hub 2s and even hub1s because people who do not upgrade they can not just give them a new hub 3 because they have to accept the upgrade.

So i guess they need back stock of hub 1's and 2's to replace old boxes with of people who dont upgrade to hub 3?

So anyway apparently the engineer coming this week will have 1s and 2s and install a 2 on my line

Also why they cant activate another persons hub2 or 1 on your line is because the mac address they used for that box is assigned to someone elses account and they can not move it. But they also said an engineer may be able to do that ? (i dont actually know how they can do this but meh)

All in all if they install a hub2 on my line this week ill be majorly happy...after using one for a few days its MILES ahead of the hub3 in ping response...ill never upgrade to a hub3...its way too underpowered to do its task.

Good luck people 😄

ill let u know when the engineer comes haha!

x

 


@beanieboy182 wrote:

well that was short lived...guess they figured the router i was using was not a hub 3 and deactivated my hub 2 😞

plus when u ring up they have no clue what ur on about in india....so its like talking to a brick wall...

thanks virgin

i know who ill be going to before too long 😄 (DEVIL FACE)

yes sky

sky sky all day sky

so much better router

none of this crap!

wish i never joined virgin... good on ya virgin 😄 I HOPE PEOPLE COME HERE AND YOU GO BUST HAH! MWUHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAA!


You could probably ring up Virgin and ask for the SH2 to be reactivated on the account as there will be a record of the MAC address on your account.

 


@purplemonkeyspa wrote:
I don't know what to tell you, man.

The game I play most (Battlefield 1) not only has a ping count but it also has various network error indicators that pop-up on-screen during times of high latency or packet loss. I have not seen a single error indicator pop-up and I've been watching this sucker like a hawk.

I can honestly say the experience is pretty damn good so far. Same great gameplay as on my Sky BB's 21ms.

My console's connection is via ethernet and nothing else is using the connection other than phone. Dunno if that's why I'm not seeing anything. I really do not know what to tell you.

I was really dreading getting VM installed after this particular thread but I am pleasantly surprised! I'm not doubting for a second there are people having genuine problems though.

I agree. I am on the VM Vivid 350 package and haven't had a problem at all with games like Overwatch (Gold ranked), Destiny 1/2, Quake Arena, Player Unknown's Battleground etc

My graph is like this:

27ad6d7729a19bdf57009abde59955dff4b63d8d

i did give them the mac address of the sh2 which was working the night before but they said that mac address has already been allocated to another account ???
weird :S