Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) and CGNV4 Latency Cause

[Datalink]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,

Greetings from the other side of the pond, so to speak.  Over the last few weeks I've been perusing various user forums across North America and Europe for issues related to Intel Puma 6 modem latency.  Of those forums, your Hub 3 stands out as yet another Puma 6 based modem where users see continuous latency no matter what site is used or what online game is played. Considering all of the problems that are on the go, the following information should be of interest to all Hub 3, Compal CH7465-LG and Hitron CGNV4 modem users.  There is much more to post regarding this, so this is a start, to alert VM users as to the real cause of the latency and hopefully engage the VM engineering staff, via the forum staff, with Arris.  I am surprised to see that there has been no mention on this board of users from other ISPs who are suffering the exact same issues with their modems, so, this may come as a surprise to some, and possibly old news to others.

So, the short story ........

The Hub 3 / Compal CH7465-LG (TG2492LG) & Hiton CGNV4 modems are Intel Puma 6 / 6 Media Gateway (MG) based modems.  These modems exhibit high latency to the modem and high latency thru the modem.  The latency affects all IPV4 and IPV6 protocols, so it will be seen on every internet application and game.  The basic cause is the processing of the data packets thru a CPU software based process instead of thru the hardware processor / accelerator.  It appears that a higher priority task runs periodically, causing the packet processing to halt, and then resume.  This is observed as latency in applications and in ping tests to the modem and beyond.  For the last several weeks, Hitron, along with Intel and Rogers Communications in Canada have been addressing the latency issue within the Hitron CGNxxx series modems.  To date, only the IPV4 ICMP latency has been resolved.  Although this is only one protocol, it does show that a Puma 6MG modem is capable of using the hardware processor / accelerator with good results.  Currently Rogers is waiting for further firmware updates from Hitron which should include an expanded list of resolved protocol latency issues.  For Arris modems, "Netdog" an Arris engineer indicated last week that Arris was onboard to address the issue for the Arris SB6190 modem.  That should be considered as good news for any Arris modem (read Hub 3) user as Arris should be able to port those changes over to other Puma 6/6MG modems fairly quickly.  This is not a trivial exercise and will probably take several weeks to accomplish.  Note that there is no guarantee at this point that it is possible to shift all packet processing to the hardware processor / accelerator without suffering from any packet loss side effects.  Time will tell if all of the technical issues can be resolved with the current hardware included in the Puma 6/6MG chipset.  Last night, Netdog loaded beta firmware on selected test modems on the Comcast Communications network.  As this was only done last night, it's too soon to tell what this version resolves and if it was successful or not.  Netdog has contacts with staff at Comcast, Rogers, Charter and Cox Communications to fan out beta versions and modifications for testing.  I'd say its time to add Virgin Media and/or Liberty Global to that group as well.

Recent activity:

Approx three weeks ago a DSLReports user, xymox1 started a thread where he reported high latency to an Arris SB6190 and illustrated that with numerous MultiPing plots.  This is the same latency that I and other users with Rogers communications have been dealing with for months so it came as no surprise.  As well as reporting via that thread, xymox1 took it upon himself to email several staff members at Arris, Intel, Cablelabs and others.  The result of that campaign was Netdog's announcement, last week, that Arris was fully engaged at resolving the issue.  That has led to last nights release of beta firmware, although as I indicated its too early to determine what the beta firmware resolves, if anything.

The original thread that xymox1 started is here:

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mis...

Yesterday, DSLReports issued a news story covering the thread:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Arris-SB6190-Modem-Puma-6-Chipset-Have-Some-Major-Issues-138...

Today, Arris responded:

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Arris-Tells-us-Its-Working-With-Intel-on-SB6190-Puma6-Problems-1...

That response was also picked by Multichannel.com

http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/intel-arris-working-firmware-fix-sb6190-modem/409379

This is more news likely to appear in the next few days as additional tech and news staff pick up on this issue.

Hub 3 observations:

Like many others using a Puma 6/6MG modem, Hub 3 users are experiencing latency when they ping the modem, or ping a target outside of the home, game online or use low latency applications.  The common misconception is that this is Buffer Bloat. It's not. Its most likely a case of the packet processing stopping while the CPU processes a higher priority task.  The packet processing is done via the CPU no matter what mode the modem is operating in, modem mode or router mode and no matter what IPV4 or IPV6 protocol is used.  Normally, the latency is just that, latency.  The exception are UDP packets. In this case there is latency and packet loss.  The result of that is delayed and failed DNS lookups, and poor game performance for games that use UDP for player/server comms or player/player comms.

Can this be fixed?

So far, it appears that the answer is yes.  Rogers Communications issued beta firmware to a small group of test modems in October.  This version shifted the IPV4 ICMP processing from the CPU to the hardware processor / accelerator, resulting in greatly improved performance in ping latency.  At the present time we are waiting for the next version firmware which should shift other protocols over to the hardware processor / accelerator.  That can be seen in the following post:

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/forums/forumtopicpage/board-id/Getting_connected/message-id/369...

The details and results of last nights beta release to the Comcast group have yet to be seen.

At this point there is enough reading to keep most staff and users busy.  My intention is to post some of the history leading up to this point and instructions on how to detect the latency and packet loss.  This is not thru the use of a BQM.  I had hoped to post this all at once but events are moving much faster than I had thought they would.  For now this should suffice to get the ball rolling.

Below is a link to a post with a couple of HrPing plots from my 32 channel modem to the connected CMTS.  This shows the latency that is observed and reflects what others have posted in this forum using Pingplotter and HrPing.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31106550-

HrPing is one of the freebie applications that can be used to monitor the latency to and thru the modem. 

Pingplots with Pingplotter which show the latency from my modem to the CMTS can be found in the first two to three rows of my online image library at Rogers Communications, located below.  They are essentially what the BQM would look like if you were able to zoom into the plot to the point where you could see the individual ping spikes.  Those ping spikes are common to Puma 6 and Puma 6MG modems.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/media/gallerypage/user-id/829158

 [MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

[RidingTheFlow]

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@Badvok wrote:

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@Guybrush85 wrote:

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@Badvok wrote:

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VM do allow you to put the SH3 into modem mode and use your own router. This doesn't totally resolve the issue and it certainly won't remove all the yellow from a TBB monitor graph, but it does minimise the actual effect of the bug on real life usage.

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And how did you come to that conclusion?

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By doing it myself? I have SH3 + Asus RT-AC66U router, no problem with VOIP or Gaming but my TBB graph is still very yellow. (FYI, TBB works on ICMP, VOIP and Gaming use UDP.)

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Sounds like problems you've perceived were not caused by Puma 6 in first place. I'd reckon you had issues due to bad SH3 router/WiFi performance, that's why you got things improved when switched to better router.

We had a lot of people here blaming Puma 6 on much more serious issues (e.g. problems with WiFi/local cables/congestion/etc). The latency problem is much more subtle than getting disconnects or noticeable rubberbands - that's mainly why VM still thinks "its mostly no big deal" while only small subset of customers are affected to actual detriment to experience.

[Sasquatch]

Cheers.

I'll be cancelling my relations upgrade from hub 2ac to hub 3 due to arrive tomorrow, and 300mb upgrade.
All gaming here, and mostly shooters across all platforms. This behind an Asus AC88u.

thanks again.

[dcookster]

"What is VIVID 300?

VIVID 300 is your secret weapon. It’s the fastest widely available download speed in the UK#. It’s an up to 20Mbps upload speed for flawless streaming and sharing. It’s fibre broadband without traffic management . It’s broadband for gamers . For the hardcore. For the best."

Absolute BS!

[GMAN73]

Why VIVID 300 is best for gamers

Whether you’re pwning the competition in your favourite FPS or exploring expansive worlds across MMORPGs and games like Destiny 2 ,VIVID 300 is equipped to take your online gaming to the next level on console, on PC, and on everything in between.

LOL, that statment alone should get Virgin Media into deep trouble with ASA.

I have contacted ASA regarding it.

[shanematthews]

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@GMAN73 wrote:

Why VIVID 300 is best for gamers

Whether you’re pwning the competition in your favourite FPS or exploring expansive worlds across MMORPGs and games like Destiny 2 ,VIVID 300 is equipped to take your online gaming to the next level on console, on PC, and on everything in between.

LOL, that statment alone should get Virgin Media into deep trouble with ASA.

I have contacted ASA regarding it.

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Why would it, the package is fine for gaming, so they aren't lying, the hub is the part causing the issue and they don't advertise the hub3 as being great for gaming, yes standards are very strict in that sense so the ASA can't really do anything about it as what they claim works for gaming does infact work fine, its the same reason ofcom don't care, the network works fine its just the hub3 causing issues, also the small part about latency not being guaranteed and what exactly counts as "gaming" because a lot of games won't care about a small amount of jitter, grand strategy, turn based etc, so it is technically possible to game just fine, they don't mention twitch based games specifically

Not the answer you want, but it is the answer you'll get from the ASA 😛

[DarkBahamut]

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rio_w wrote: 

Just look on the drastic improvement. It’s beggars believe Virgin Media still give this defective product to customers. Completely left in the dark as to when to expect a fix, if it is even possible. 

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The funny thing is your SH2ac graph is actually worse than your SH3 one. Packet loss is infinity more concerning than the jitter, so your connection is currently worse than it was. Now the SH2ac (probably) isn't to blame for that, but it's worth pointing out you don't actually have an improvement.

[rio_w]

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@DarkBahamut wrote:

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rio_w wrote: 

Just look on the drastic improvement. It’s beggars believe Virgin Media still give this defective product to customers. Completely left in the dark as to when to expect a fix, if it is even possible. 

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The funny thing is your SH2ac graph is actually worse than your SH3 one. Packet loss is infinity more concerning than the jitter, so your connection is currently worse than it was. Now the SH2ac (probably) isn't to blame for that, but it's worth pointing out you don't actually have an improvement.

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I’ve notice an improved difference in everyday use when compared with the Hub3. I think ICMP packets are probably being dropped for higher priority traffic.

[Guybrush85]

It's not dropping packets for higher priority traffic. That's something you can expect from a core router of the internet, not someone's home router.

[dcookster]

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@shanematthews wrote:

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@GMAN73 wrote:

Why VIVID 300 is best for gamers

Whether you’re pwning the competition in your favourite FPS or exploring expansive worlds across MMORPGs and games like Destiny 2 ,VIVID 300 is equipped to take your online gaming to the next level on console, on PC, and on everything in between.

LOL, that statment alone should get Virgin Media into deep trouble with ASA.

I have contacted ASA regarding it.

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Why would it, the package is fine for gaming, so they aren't lying, the hub is the part causing the issue and they don't advertise the hub3 as being great for gaming, yes standards are very strict in that sense so the ASA can't really do anything about it as what they claim works for gaming does infact work fine, its the same reason ofcom don't care, the network works fine its just the hub3 causing issues, also the small part about latency not being guaranteed and what exactly counts as "gaming" because a lot of games won't care about a small amount of jitter, grand strategy, turn based etc, so it is technically possible to game just fine, they don't mention twitch based games specifically

Not the answer you want, but it is the answer you'll get from the ASA 😛

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Didn't realise you were a lawyer, VM biggest fanboy, yes!  Although you could also be one of VM plants that someone referred too earlier in the thread.

You don't add anything constutive to the thread, so why even bother posting on it.

[GMAN73]

ShaneMatthews try telling that to the people who sign up for VM who then find out that they are in an area that it oversubscribed then they have fobbed off for up to a year or more with excuses. The network is fine don't make me laugh.