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Seffrid
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Problems with Windows Live mail settings change

The only change I've had to make under Windows Live Mail is to the POP3 server name, as I was using pop.ntlworld.com. Having made the change, I'm now downloading a mass of old emails - currently in excess of 3,000 and I'm only back to last August. Is there any way of putting a stop to that please?

[MOD EDIT: Subject heading changed to assist community]

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Superuser
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Message 4 of 9
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Helpful Answer

Re: Problem with email settings change

I've had a play with two separate email clients

Thunderbird
Windows Live Mail (As used by the OP)

I first Archived my Inbox in webmail to limit the number of emails that would be downloaded to around 350

I did the same with each client.

  1. Set up my blueyonder account using the following settings
    pop3.blueyonder.co.uk Port 995 SSL
    smtp.virginmedia.com  Port 465 SSL
  2. Downloaded the mail to each client.
  3. Changed the server name for the inbound side
    pop3.virginmedia.com
  4. Started a send and receive for each client

The result:

Thunderbird did not download any further copies of the mail.
Windows Live Mail re-downloaded all the previous messages.

I have a possible explanation for the difference in behaviour.  Let's just say the more I investigate Windows Live Mail, the less likely I am to ever recommend people keep using it.

Tim

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Superuser
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Message 2 of 9
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Re: Problem with email settings change

At last a different problem to write about! Don't hold me to anything on this.

I think this is must be how POP access works when you change servers. I think the server must look at e-mail already in the box and decide if it is "new" ie not previously downloaded by that server and so it does what you are seeing.  It might be connected with the fact that VM's mail system is not fully POP compliant and so mail remains in the in-box until you move it out or delete it, rather than accepting the standard POP command to delete after downloading. See this link:

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Email/POP3-Behaviour/td-p/2994032

It happened to me when I changed over. I only had five e-mails in my in-box and they re-downloaded. It helps therefore if your in-box is empty when you make the changes.

The Forum Team will pick this up and hopefully advise further. For others reading there is no rush to make the configuration changes.


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Forum Team
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Re: Problem with email settings change

Hi Seffrid,

Really sorry about the mass of emails you've recently downloaded. To be honest I'm not certain whether or not this should happen.

I suspect not, as we've frequently asked customers to change their server settings when trouble-shooting email issues, and I don't recall this being mentioned before.

I wonder if this due to client behaviour rather than server name change per se?

 


Jen
Forum Team



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Message 4 of 9
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Re: Problem with email settings change

I've had a play with two separate email clients

Thunderbird
Windows Live Mail (As used by the OP)

I first Archived my Inbox in webmail to limit the number of emails that would be downloaded to around 350

I did the same with each client.

  1. Set up my blueyonder account using the following settings
    pop3.blueyonder.co.uk Port 995 SSL
    smtp.virginmedia.com  Port 465 SSL
  2. Downloaded the mail to each client.
  3. Changed the server name for the inbound side
    pop3.virginmedia.com
  4. Started a send and receive for each client

The result:

Thunderbird did not download any further copies of the mail.
Windows Live Mail re-downloaded all the previous messages.

I have a possible explanation for the difference in behaviour.  Let's just say the more I investigate Windows Live Mail, the less likely I am to ever recommend people keep using it.

Tim

________________________________________


Only use Helpful answer if your problems been solved.

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Forum Team
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Re: Problem with email settings change

Ahh thanks for doing that Tim, really appreciate it.

It confirms what I suspected. 

I've marked your reply as Helpful to aid anyone searching this topic Smiley Happy

Oh and I've asked the Mods to slightly change the heading of this thread to ease any searches too.


Jen
Forum Team



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Superuser
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Message 6 of 9
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Re: Problem with email settings change

@HowardML You were very close.

With POP3 the server doesn't really keep a read status.  However each message does have a Unique ID (UID)

Lets have a look this on pop3.blueyonder.co.uk and pop3.virginmedia.com  Just looking at the first 3 emails in each.

pop3.blueyonder.co.uk

 

OpenSSL> s_client -connect pop3.blueyonder.co.uk:995 -quiet -CAfile c:\cacert.pem
depth=2 C = BE, O = GlobalSign nv-sa, OU = Root CA, CN = GlobalSign Root CA
verify return:1
depth=1 C = BE, O = GlobalSign nv-sa, CN = AlphaSSL CA - SHA256 - G2
verify return:1
depth=0 C = GB, OU = Domain Control Validated, CN = pop3.blueyonder.co.uk
verify return:1
+OK Virgin Media POP3 server ready [ e4c558782BY ].
user tim.dutton@blueyonder.co.uk
read:errno=0
OpenSSL> s_client -connect pop3.blueyonder.co.uk:995 -quiet -CAfile c:\cacert.pem
depth=2 C = BE, O = GlobalSign nv-sa, OU = Root CA, CN = GlobalSign Root CA
verify return:1
depth=1 C = BE, O = GlobalSign nv-sa, CN = AlphaSSL CA - SHA256 - G2
verify return:1
depth=0 C = GB, OU = Domain Control Validated, CN = pop3.blueyonder.co.uk
verify return:1
+OK Virgin Media POP3 server ready [ e4c558782BY ].
user myname@blueyonder.co.uk
+OK
pass mypassword
+OK Logged in.
uidl
+OK
1 0000b41e25824f46
2 0000b41f25824f46
3 0000b42025824f46

pop3.virginmedia.com

 

 

OpenSSL> s_client -connect pop3.virginmedia.com:995 -quiet -CAfile c:\cacert.pem
depth=2 C = BE, O = GlobalSign nv-sa, OU = Root CA, CN = GlobalSign Root CA
verify return:1
depth=1 C = BE, O = GlobalSign nv-sa, CN = AlphaSSL CA - SHA256 - G2
verify return:1
depth=0 C = GB, OU = Domain Control Validated, CN = pop3.virginmedia.com
verify return:1
+OK Virgin Media POP3 server ready [ e4c558782VM ].
user myname@blueyonder.co.uk
+OK
pass mypassword
+OK Logged in.
uidl
+OK
1 0000b41e25824f46
2 0000b41f25824f46
3 0000b42025824f46

After passing the UIDL command we see two sets of numbers.  The first is the emails list position, the second is it's UID.

 

Note that if I delete the mail at position 2 the rest of the mails will move to fill the vacant position, so the list position is not unique.  On the other hand the UID is unique to that mail.

Why are the UID's identical for both servers?

Because although pop3.blueyonder.co.uk and pop3.virginmedia.com appear different - they actually are just gateways that access the same mail store

The way the servers are set up means that while you can access blueyonder emails from pop3.virginmedia.com and pop3.blueyonder.co.uk, you can't for example access virginmedia.com emails from pop3.blueyonder.co.uk

When the email client downloads messages, it keeps a record of which UID's it's downloaded and which are mapped to which particular message in the clients mailbox, if a UID already exists in it's downloaded mail store then the mail is not downloaded.

I'm guessing that when Thunderbird maps the UID's it does them based on the email address regardless of the apparent name of the server.  However when Live Mail does the same, it's UID store is mapped against the server's hostname instead.

Consequently, when the server address was changed, Live Mail no longer realised it had a copy of the message and so downloaded them again.

Tim

 

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Message 7 of 9
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Re: Problem with email settings change

@ravenstar68 @danbayliss

OMG! and so the mystery is revealed. I am grateful. I think VM should take notice and add to their sticky that this is an issue which is likely to be seen by WLM users and perhaps other clients (bet Outlook behaves as WLM does, both MS products) when they change their settings. And they ought to do it now, before the legacy servers are "switched off" or there will be a deluge of complaints and questions at switch off which will be down to the behaviour of the e-mail client and not the behaviour of VM's servers..


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Superuser
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Re: Problem with email settings change


HowardML wrote:

@ravenstar68 @danbayliss

(bet Outlook behaves as WLM does, both MS products) 


What do I win Howard?

Just repeated the above test with Outlook 2016 myself.

Outlook 2016 doesn't redownload the emails when you change the server name.  There may be other clients which do, but I wouldn't like to bet which ones do and which one's don't.

Tim

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Re: Problem with email settings change


ravenstar68 wrote:

HowardML wrote:

@ravenstar68 @danbayliss

(bet Outlook behaves as WLM does, both MS products) 


What do I win Howard?

My eternal respect for the one who has more e-mail clients than you could possibly imagine and a drink of your choice (tea or coffee) if you are ever down this way

Just repeated the above test with Outlook 2016 myself.

Outlook 2016 doesn't redownload the emails when you change the server name.  There may be other clients which do, but I wouldn't like to bet which ones do and which one's don't.

Well we know WLM does. That'll do for a start. We'll soon find out though when e-mail settings change goes viral!

Tim


Cheers. Kudos to you.


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I do not work for VM. The advice I give is based on my best understanding of VM policy and practice. You rely on it at your own risk.
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